Am I the only one who doesn't like the arbitrary "boss monster" tag?

[Stalker0]

It's amazing how some people think they know what their talking about when they truly don't.

Amazing world we live in, isn't it?

A friendly reminder to debate the points, not the people. Lets keep it civil and focus on the arguments at hand.

-Stalker0

 

[billd91]

My sage would have 1/2 hd and 3 hp and +18 all know skills and cast legend lore as a 15th level wizard

And for a lot of people, this doesn't make much sense. Legend lore is a powerful spell - yet this guy has no foundation in the magical skills needed to cast it? If the backstory included him being blessed (cursed?) by the gods to be able to use the legend lore spell as a spell-like or supernatural ability, then that's system agnostic. I can do it back in 1e, not just 3e, PF, or 4e.

The point here is - you're using your own rules for this, not even 4e rules as far as I can tell. And that's all system agnostic. It's not a stronger argument for 4e or 3e or anything else.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The effect of adding things like BAB, save bonuses, hit points - all pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, even if the peaceful encounter goes bad and breaks down into a fight. A learned sage, probably pretty old, never very high physical stats, not going to put up much of a fight for a party of 4 6th level characters no matter what his BAB is.

Except he can fight as well as a 4 or 5ev fighter

 

[slobster]

Keep in mind that this is a rougher and more dangerous world that most of us have experience with. These aren't computer programmers or office workers who can live exceptionally sedentary lives. These are people who probably have to engage in a lot more physical labor just to get their normal maintenance chores done.

That isn't necessarily true. In my old Eberron campaign, a celebrated artist could live a life as sedentary and as removed from manual labor as any privileged socialite in our modern world.

Even if what you are saying is true, chopping wood and carrying in water from the well does not equate to having the wherewithal in combat to land telling blows with the speed of a swordsmaster. Else you are faced with the problem that your silk weaver, because he does chores regularly, is more capable in a fight than your third level rogue, who grew up fighting viciously over scraps on the mean streets and spent the last few years delving into ancient crypts filled with unspeakable evil for a living.

Something does not compute.

 

[triqui]

For blacksmith, I'd go with expert. And yes, a highly skilled blacksmith probably should kick a 3rd level fighters ass up and down the street.

In the fantasy trope (where the blacksmith is the biggest and strongest guy in the town), maybe. In real world, no way. There's no reason to think Paul Chen will be able to defeat a seasoned experienced warrior, or to believe that Masamune could defeat an experienced samurai (or a CR3 ogre, for that matter). And if we include other level-dependant stuff, then it's even worse (there's no reason a good artisan should resist a "fear" spell better than a seasoned lvl 3 fighter)

It's not like really matters, though. The Blacksmith is never going to battle, unless he is supposed to, so his real BAB is not relevant at all. All you need from him is his crafting skill, 99% of the time.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And for a lot of people, this doesn't make much sense. Legend lore is a powerful spell - yet this guy has no foundation in the magical skills needed to cast it? If the backstory included him being blessed (cursed?) by the gods to be able to use the legend lore spell as a spell-like or supernatural ability, then that's system agnostic

no curse no blessing my rules are ther are no rules (and that is rifts, Wod, or D&d)

The point here is - you're using your own rules for this, not even 4e rules as far as I can tell. And that's all system agnostic. It's not a stronger argument for 4e or 3e or anything else.

My arguement is BOTH need work, and if we stoped saying "my edition is better" and start makeing some new amalgam we might just get the best ever

 

[billd91]

That isn't necessarily true. In my old Eberron campaign, a celebrated artist could live a life as sedentary and as removed from manual labor as any privileged socialite in our modern world.

Even if what you are saying is true, chopping wood and carrying in water from the well does not equate to having the wherewithal in combat to land telling blows with the speed of a swordsmaster. Else you are faced with the problem that your silk weaver, because he does chores regularly, is more capable in a fight than your third level rogue, who grew up fighting viciously over scraps on the mean streets and spent the last few years delving into ancient crypts filled with unspeakable evil for a living.

Something does not compute.

Notice that your rogue is getting better really fast and, if he survives, will surpass the silk weaver in short order while that silk weaver has taken decades and has no prospect of improving in any game-relevant context. And he's probably done more than just his chores - maybe helped put out a few fires, spent some time in a militia, lived through a war or two, tried to fend off burglars, a whole bunch of things that make up a varied life's tapestry in a genre-consistent setting.

There may be plenty of quibbles about just how tough an NPC should be compared to an up-and-coming PC, but I think it's understandable and fair for them to pick up a little on-paper combat (combat survival) ability along the way to picking up more formidable and important abilities as they gain life's experience. As long as they are then equipped and played in appropriate character, they'll put up the fight they should put up (which may be not much of a fight).

 

[slobster]

And he's probably done more than just his chores - maybe helped put out a few fires, spent some time in a militia, lived through a war or two, tried to fend off burglars, a whole bunch of things that make up a varied life's tapestry in a genre-consistent setting.

But what if he hasn't? What if he really is a sheltered artisan who knows nothing beyond the skill he's spent his life perfecting? That's a valid archetype that the rules do a poor job of portraying.

I'm not saying that the game utterly fails at portraying artisans well enough for most purposes. I am saying that this is one of the rough patches in the rules that doesn't bear close inspection. I fix it by fudging the rules in my games. It sounds like you fix it by glossing over the sillier details and adding post-hoc justifications for others where it seems appropriate to you.

Both work for me, but it is a part of the rules that I think 5E can improve.

 

[triqui]

There may be plenty of quibbles about just how tough an NPC should be compared to an up-and-coming PC, but I think it's understandable and fair for them to pick up a little on-paper combat (combat survival) ability along the way to picking up more formidable and important abilities as they gain life's experience. As long as they are then equipped and played in appropriate character, they'll put up the fight they should put up (which may be not much of a fight).

Actually this is one of the common dissonances of games with levels. Power is attached to level, so a high level whatever is always better than a low level anything.
The best tailor in the world can defeat a platoon of militia. Also, he can defeat an ogre. While this is cool and fun in some instances (like Mickey Mouse's Valiant Little Taylor or whatever), it does make a dissonance with the game simulation. It's a minor one (because unless your game goes around taylors battling monsters, this won't happen in 99.99% of the cases), but it's there.

I also find it weird in the opposite sense. My fighter is pouring points into blacksmithing. In order to finish a masterwork plate, I need a couple of extra ranks. So I go to the nearest hill, start to kill goblins, and then I'll be able to craft it.

I don't care about it, honestly. It's part of the game. It's the necessary evil behind the level system, which I think it's the right one for games like D&D, where players are heroes that start fighting goblins, and end fighting Dragons. It also models right the typical NPC: Galadriel should be harder to poison than your average dwarven grunt, not because she has higher CON, but because she has higher level. That's what I want the system to express, and I can deal with high level artisans and crafters being somewhat bad reprersented, if that's the price.

EDIT:Maybe 5e bounded accuracy is a good step to solve this minor nitpick, though.

 

[billd91]

In the fantasy trope (where the blacksmith is the biggest and strongest guy in the town), maybe. In real world, no way. There's no reason to think Paul Chen will be able to defeat a seasoned experienced warrior, or to believe that Masamune could defeat an experienced samurai (or a CR3 ogre, for that matter). And if we include other level-dependant stuff, then it's even worse (there's no reason a good artisan should resist a "fear" spell better than a seasoned lvl 3 fighter)

Unless I miss my guess, we are talking about a fantasy trope world - or at least a medieval one - and not a modern one in which Paul Chen would matter. As far as Masamune goes, who's to say? Did he have some training in the use of the sword as well as the forging of them? And how seasoned are we talking about in D&D levels? 3rd level? 7th level? 10th level? How many seasons does it take to be seasoned?