Am I the only one who doesn't like the arbitrary "boss monster" tag?

If you can handwave a unique class for a single NPC sage, you can handwave it for any 3e/4e monster/NPC. Alice the Sage who can't fight a cat, she's in a unique "Alice the Sage" class. Bob the Sage who can beat up an ogre and do backflips on tightropes, he's in a unique "Bob the Sage" class. Trogdor the Burninator Ancient Red Dragon who just like to burninate and not able to cast any spells? He's in the "Trogdor the Burninator Ancient Red Dragon" class. All these classes, feats, races etc. etc. are all just abstractions that the DM uses to model the results he wants. The fact that a "class" is created to suit just one particular case doesn't mean it's any more meaningful than a simple handwave. :hmm:

If you are going to use the Sage class more than once, this might be a good move. But if you are going to need some obscure special need NPC (let's say... a glassblower?) why would you go through all this process, and needing that much prep time, just to make a class you'll use once, and only once, in a very specific setting, in your whole career? Why not just handweave it enterelly? "This is Bob the glassblower, he has +15 in glassblowing. He sucks at fighting, so he is +0 att, +1d3-1 dmg, and 5hp, with AC 10, in the case it ever needs a combat stat.

See, there is a difference, and it comes down to whether or not you plan to use this sort of class again. For many NPCs, the existing 3E NPC classes weren't suitable, so in fact I did create an even more pathetic in combat class for my games.

I mean frankly, the real question is whether or not these NPCs will even take part in combat. If they are plot devices, leave them as that. If they might get into combat (you have to escort the sage somewhere) then flesh them out. All this talk about how difficult it is to create a master blacksmith NPC without giving them combat abilities is stupid if you never even intend to test their blacksmithing skill or combat prowess.

What I object to is creatures and NPCs that definitely will be in combat *should* follow the rules. But as I have said many times, and had greeted by derision several times, is that I am a physics-focused, process-based DM and player. I want the world to have rules that both parties follow, and I enjoy observing the interactions therein.

Edit: I will add one thing though.. If your master blacksmith has an incredible smithing skill, I think it's reasonable that the PCs have some expectation of his level, in the UNLIKELY EVENT that they want to murder him. Again, that's open world physics, rather than the gamist, CRPG style of shopkeepers you can't kill.
 

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4e makes it completely transparent that there is no "vertical" mechanical advancement - though there is some "horizontal" mechanical advancement (high level PCs become more complex to play). The fiction bears the entire weight of delivering any genuine experience of getting better - hence the importance of tiers to 4e play. One obvious failing of some of the 4e adventure offerings from WotC is that they don't deliver on this: there are epic-level encounters the stakes of which aren't really epic at all.
I would slant the argument slightly. 4e makes it relatively easy for the DM to choose how much of the PCs' "vertical" mechanical advancement he wants to make apparent over the course of his campaign. If he provides the PCs with appropriate challenges, then the PCs' "vertical" advancement becomes a matter of the fiction (orcs yesterday, giants today, demons tomorrow). However, if the rate at which the challenges escalate is slower than the rate at which the PCs gain levels, the PCs' vertical mechanical advancement becomes more obvious. In the extreme case, the PCs could still be fighting the same 1st-level opponents at 30th level that they fought when they were low-level characters. The PCs' vertical mechanical advancement becomes blatantly obvious in that case (though the fights would probably be completely un-challenging).
 

What I object to is creatures and NPCs that definitely will be in combat *should* follow the rules. But as I have said many times, and had greeted by derision several times, is that I am a physics-focused, process-based DM and player. I want the world to have rules that both parties follow, and I enjoy observing the interactions therein.
I hope I haven't come across as derisive - that's not been my intention, although obviously I take a different approach from you.

I want to explore a little a bit these different approaches, if that's OK.

I GMed Rolemaster as my main fantasy RPG for nearly 20 years. Rolemaster is very much a process-sim action resolution engine. But it has virtually no monster build rules. Because I had PCs with summoning spells based on levels, I worked out my ownlevel-based monster build tolerances for the relevant categories of creature (monstly animals and demons) in order to try to balance those spells, using some paradigmatic RM creatures as my baseline and tweaking other creatures around them. But this was purely metagame driven. As far as the fiction is concerned, monster build is like AD&D - you slap on the numbers that seem right for a monster's original, size, general toughness etc. There is none of the 3E-style "monster types as classes", feats, special traits etc to "explain" where all the numbers come from. The process simuation is confined to action resolution. So in RM, "following the rules" has a very definite meaning when it comes to action resolution, but really no meaning when it comes to monster building (other than the spell-balancing rules on animal and demon builds that I introduced into my own game).

Whereas 3E seems to me to make monster build into something like an aspect of action resolution - where the action is, I guess, the emergence of creatures within the ecology of the gameworld. I think this is a very particular approach to monster building. The only other RPG I can think of that approaches monster building like this is Classic Traveller, with its random creature generation tables, which are one aspect of its world design mechanics, and which are meant to be a "mechanics as physics" model of planetary ecology.

I'm curious if you think that this is a fair way to characterise 3E monster building rules - as really eliding the typical contrast between action resolution mechanics and build mechanics.
 

I would slant the argument slightly. 4e makes it relatively easy for the DM to choose how much of the PCs' "vertical" mechanical advancement he wants to make apparent over the course of his campaign. If he provides the PCs with appropriate challenges, then the PCs' "vertical" advancement becomes a matter of the fiction (orcs yesterday, giants today, demons tomorrow). However, if the rate at which the challenges escalate is slower than the rate at which the PCs gain levels, the PCs' vertical mechanical advancement becomes more obvious. In the extreme case, the PCs could still be fighting the same 1st-level opponents at 30th level that they fought when they were low-level characters. The PCs' vertical mechanical advancement becomes blatantly obvious in that case (though the fights would probably be completely un-challenging).
Fair point. I do a bit of this in my own game - at 1st level very many opponents were higher level (for the obvious reason that there is no other way but up!) whereas now, at 17th level, many opponents are 16th or lower.

But I do a lot of minions and swarms also, which in some ways act as a nice halfway between purely fictional advancement and actual mechanical advancement.
 

Could you explain please? I've never seen a copy of HQ and associate the name with a Descent style boardgame.
[MENTION=57948]triqui[/MENTION] gave a decent summary - PCs are lists of freeform descriptors with numbers next to them, action resolution is descriptor vs descriptor, and the benefits of broad vs narrow descriptors are regulated by the GM applying appropriate penalties to those broad descriptors that might overshadow more narrow descriptors on other players' PCs.

To elaborate on action resolution: it is d20 roll under, with results therefore being success, critical success, failure or critical failure. (Think RuneQuest, but with d20 rather than d%.) The "success level" of the two opponents are compared to get the overall result. As triqui said, a bonus of 21 is actually a bonus of 1m1, which means it's like a bonus of 1 (ie hard to roll under) except the mastery gives you an automatic "bump" of one "success level". (There are also Hero Points that can be spent to bump. And obviously if both opponents have masteries and/or spend Hero Points then the bumps can cancel one another out.)

There is a robust augment mechanic, and some descriptors serve mainly as augments (eg if you have the descriptor "Shining Armour 12", you are unlikely to actually use that very often in a check, but you can use it to augment other abilities - say your Knight 17 ability, if you find yourself in a joust). Relationships are often used as augments too: so my Love for Roslyn 14 might be used to augment my Knight ability in that joust if the agreed stakes of the joust are that the Black Knight will free the lovely Roslyn if I can unhorse him in 3 tilts at the list.

The opposed checks can be either simple contests - a single opposed check to determine success - or complex contests - a system not unlike skill challenges, though because there is active opposition it's about racking up a certain number of successes before the opponents, rather than about successes before failures. (I think this system is in fact one obvious inspiration for skill challenges.)

It is the same action resolution system for all conflicts - combat, non-combat, etc - with the appropriate abilities determined simply by the applicability of the descriptors.

What I've described above is found in HeroWars (the original version, set in Glorantha with a lot of example descriptors with strong Glorantha flavour) and HeroQuest first ed (a revision of HeroWars, still set in Glorantha). HeroQuest revised is presented as a generic narrativist adventure RPG. It's two main innovations on the earlier versions are (i) changing the way that successes are tallied for complex conflicts, and (ii) introducing the Pass/Fail cycle for setting the target numbers on the GM's side of conflict resolution. (These aren't strictly DCs - they are used for resolving the GM's die roll in conflict resolution.)

The basic idea of the Pass/Fail cycle is as set out in the 4e DMG 2 (Robin Laws has basically cut and pasted that discussion out of his HeroQuest revised rulebook). It factors into target number setting in a very simple way: every time the PCs succeed at a conflict, the target number for the next one goes up (there is a simple chart in the rulebook that scales these numbers relative to the PCs' own numbers), until eventually the PCs fail in a conflict, and then the target number goes back down. So the idea is that the desirable pacing of a pass/fail tension/release cycle will occur without anyone having to do anything except follow the target number rules and then roll the dice.

Because the idea that the PCs will (eventually) fail is built into this system, it has a lot of good advice on how to narrate failure as something other than a dead end (although I think the advice in Burning Wheel is even better).

It's interesting to note that this is actually the opposite of some 4e skill challenge advice, which says if the PCs fail the skill challenge make the next encounter harder. I think Robin Laws approach might be better - successes should rack up the tension, and failure should be followed by success rather than more failure, I think. I don't think I'm fully consistent with either approach in my own GMing practice.

Some other interesting features of HeroWars/Quest relevant to 4e are (i) that all meaningful advancement is in the fiction, not the mechanics; (ii) that the stakes are purely fictional, too, as the actual action resolution mechanics are so simple and non-tactical (complex contests have some bells and whistles that allow a bit of tactics, but nowhere near the scale of 4e combat); (iii) that the GMs target numbers for the opposing checks in a conflict are set on a purely metagame basis (like the DC by level chart) which means that narration of opposition must be adapted to fit those numbers, rather than vice versa - a lot like a 4e skill challenge, in my view (and in my view this is also non-coincidental - I think it's pretty obvious that 4e skill challenges and DC rules were modelled in part on HeroWars/Quest-style complex conflict mechanics).

HW/Q is also one of the RPGs that I often bring to mind as a counterexample to claims like an RPG must have distinctive (and detailed) rules for combat compared to non-combat, or must have action resolution based on stat+skill, or must aspire to its mechanics being a "physics enging" of the gameworld.

That's probably a longer answer than you needed!, but might give you an idea of what I meant, and also why I see 4e as the most indie-ish version of D&D.
 
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On being able to play with PC's of differing levels.

I realize that in 3e this would be very, very difficult to do. AC and saves scale so quickly that a two or three level disparity between PC's would make a very large difference. The lower level character would get whacked pretty much instantly.

But in 4e? Really? The only difference between 5 levels of monsters is what, HP and 2 points of defense? Oh, and +5 on their attacks and +2 damage.

There is absolutely no reason a 15th level PC and an 11th level PC can't operate in the same theater in 4e. The monsters don't scale so sharply. The DC's are rocketing up every bump in CR like they do in 3e.

I'm not seeing how a spread level party in 4e would actually be difficult. It shouldn't be. 4e's math is way too flat for it to be a real issue.
 

There is absolutely no reason a 15th level PC and an 11th level PC can't operate in the same theater in 4e. The monsters don't scale so sharply. The DC's are rocketing up every bump in CR like they do in 3e.

My feeling is a +2 on a PC in 4E has more impact than a similar +2 in 3E, due to extra rolling required in 4E, and because many of 3E's mechanics that work around attack/hit-points are not available in 4E.

Definitely you'll see much more advice in 4E to keep everything same level. Some of it is no doubt paranoia about breaking a precious magical balance (which isn't that fragile in practice).

But some of the concern rings true - when our group's last 4E DM decided to spend encounter budget on some Level+4 monsters (as opposed to equal-level elites), we felt the difference - the fight worked out ok, but was less dynamic and fun that those that kept the monster levels within L+2 of the party.
 

What I object to is creatures and NPCs that definitely will be in combat *should* follow the rules. But as I have said many times, and had greeted by derision several times, is that I am a physics-focused, process-based DM and player. I want the world to have rules that both parties follow, and I enjoy observing the interactions therein.
Of course it should follow the rules. The 4e-style blacksmith also have AC and hitpoints, and die when hit and roll to attack. He is just built using a different approach, so he does not need to have 50 hp and BAB +8/+3 just to be able to have +15 in weaponcrafting.

Edit: I will add one thing though.. If your master blacksmith has an incredible smithing skill, I think it's reasonable that the PCs have some expectation of his level, in the UNLIKELY EVENT that they want to murder him. Again, that's open world physics, rather than the gamist, CRPG style of shopkeepers you can't kill.
That's a cheap argument. You can kill, and interact, with 4e-style shopkeepers just as well as with 3e.
 

On being able to play with PC's of differing levels.

I realize that in 3e this would be very, very difficult to do. AC and saves scale so quickly that a two or three level disparity between PC's would make a very large difference. The lower level character would get whacked pretty much instantly.

But in 4e? Really? The only difference between 5 levels of monsters is what, HP and 2 points of defense? Oh, and +5 on their attacks and +2 damage.

There is absolutely no reason a 15th level PC and an 11th level PC can't operate in the same theater in 4e. The monsters don't scale so sharply. The DC's are rocketing up every bump in CR like they do in 3e.

I'm not seeing how a spread level party in 4e would actually be difficult. It shouldn't be. 4e's math is way too flat for it to be a real issue.

Its 5 points of defenses as well as the +5 to hit. That's the real rub for the 5 level split party the lower level members go from a system preferred 55% chance to hit to a 30% chance to hit and they are going to be hit in return about 80% of the time. It can get pretty brutal.

Three level spread is about the tolerance point for the math. Though the higher hp in 4e does give you a little better margin for error.

The above assumes you are using encounters at the highest character level. If you use encounters at average party level +/- 2 you might comfortably handle a 5 level spread in the party but the higher level characters may get a bit bored from being consistently under-challenged.
 

That's a cheap argument. You can kill, and interact, with 4e-style shopkeepers just as well as with 3e.

No, it's like this.. in 3E you have to guess how tough the blacksmith is based on his blacksmithing skill, telling you that he probably has at least that BAB and at least that many HD (which might be too high, and if I were using a homemade NPC class it would be known by the players). In 4E you've no idea - you have to sense the DM's motive, guess how he will handle your attack on the blacksmith, discern what combat abilities he might have given this blacksmith (or indeed, whether he will give you a tough encounter or not on the fly).

In either system I would feel mighty pissed off if the blacksmith's skill wasn't supported by the same mechanical structure I used - if he had a smithing skill beyond his true level I would be annoyed if I challenged him to a hammer-off, and I'd be equally annoyed if his combat prowess was way higher than I might expect for his smithing. The DM has fiat though, and where in 3E, if he did either of these things I'd understand he was violating the mechanics, in 4E he just can, and I have to deal with it. In my opinion, 'a wizard did it' style DMing violates the social contract of the game, and is no fun (unless it's for a laugh, of course). 3E let's me be pissed off at the DM, 4E tells me to shut up and go back to my player mechanics where I belong.

Obviously an ideal system would be more nuanced, and the amazing blacksmith would have skills based on his age and experiences. As a player I would be able to discern his level, and in turn recognise that by investing all that time in smithing he probably wasn't terrible in combat, but he wasn't as good as me, a guy who did that all his life instead of smithing. He definitely hasn't had time to read up on arcane lore though, or even learn to walk a tightrope.
 

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