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5E Am I too strict?


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Bolares

Adventurer
Then the DM should handwave several thousand gold pieces my cleric's way. ;)
Why?

What I'm saying is that the book purposefully ignores ink costs for these 2 spells because the designers didn't want to tax the player for their character's evolution. It's a choice favoring conviniency and ease of play over simulationism. Maybe it's not for your group, or the OP's group, that's fine, but it's not a bug, it's a feature.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
FWIW, keep in mind that even with this house-rule, the new spells might not be available immediately as they are no longer "free" but more HP, spell slots, and other features might be gained. So personally, I would hardly consider this denying the wizard what he should gain from leveling, especially since it can be handled with foresight on the player's part and if the game is "rich enough" for the player to afford it generally.
 

Wait, why is he copying 4 spells?
He was in adventure. He rose from 1st to 2nd then from 2nd to 3rd. 4 spells total.

Edit: For clarification, you might not get your free spells in your book immediately, but you do have them prepared as flash of insight. This also means that you might have to unprepare some spells to make room for your insights but it is generaly a minor inconvenience.
 


Nah, nah, no please don't. I wrote a WORKING ECONOMY. D&D 5e (and every other edition) had NONE as per RAW.

First it would be 200 Silver in my case for the starting.
I did a working economy for my greyhawk campaign (and every other) but I go nothing like RAW.

I try to give you some examples from my in game pricelist on how to eventually do that:
I my games it is 1g is 20s is 240c to reflect some reality.
So in my campaign a stiletto is 10s a two handed sword is 100s.
A buffed armor (AC12) is 20s a breastplate is 100s a full plate is 800s and needs to be bodyfitted
A mage scroll is (Spell-level)^2 x 100s, so 100s for a level 1 scroll and 8100s for a level 9 scroll.
Those scrolls can be used for oneshot or copying into spellbook, I do not bother about ink and stuff it is minor expense.

You see now the fighter comes with 200s, so e.g. he can buy a two handed sword and a breastplate, and the wizard gets 2 level 1 scrolls for that dosh.

Of course you got to steer the treasure from the beginning, normally every humanoid drops a few silver e.g 1d6 for an orc.

I hope that clarifies it a bit what I mean
I'm not sure what most of that had to do with anything. And unless Helldritch is using your economy instead of the rules in the book, then my numbers are more accurate to what they are doing.

I think some people here are confusing paying for additional spells and paying for copying.
Bob the wizard is now third level. He has the chance to be in town.
He leveled in the field so now he wants to copy his new spells into his spellbook.
2 first level must be copied. It cost him 100 gold to get them down.
2 second level must be copied. Both are of his school so again 100 gold to get them down.

He wants to add a third spell second level spell. He goes to the local wizard that thought him magic and wants to add the blur spell to his spell book. Being a former apprentice, the wizard charge him 100 gold for the right of copying the spell. It costs an other 100 gold in inks.
Understood that just fine

And it goes both ways.
snip
Meanwhile, Tarkud the Fighter, pays for the repairs to his armor, shield and weapons (about 10% of their value). He buys new magical arrows and goes to the alchemist and apothecary to buy potions. He knows that Bob will make a few potions of fire resistance but he does not expect that Bob will have time to make a lot of them. Maybe two or three. So better check with the local alchemist. Healing potions are costly too but hey... At least they turned up a good profit on this adventure. The same goes with Albrecht the priest, and all the other characters. Everyone pays for something.
Okay, pause button.

So, you never mentioned that the Fighter is paying for repairs before, this does change things.

10% of the value. It looks like your group is still around level 3, so he likely has chainmail still (well, he shouldn't but we'll talk about that in a second)

So, making some number assumptions. Chainmail costs 7.5, shield costs 1, longsword 1.5, and longbow 5

Tarkud the Fighter has spent.... 15 gold on up keeping his equipment.
Bob the Wizard spent 200 just in copying his "free" spells.

In fact, Tarkud could have platemail which costs 150 to upkeep, giving a total of 157.5 gold and still be less.

Which is why he can buy magical arrows (new gear that isn't part of the upkeep) and potions. Which, while Bob can make if I assume you are going with the crafting rules, Bob is still spending money on.


Which, really starts getting ridiculous if we assume everyone has the same amount of gold.

Bob spent 400 gold between copying and buying one spell, assuming he isn't broke and can still afford to buy materials for potionmaking (which he will give to the party) he had to have somewhere between 500 and 600 gold, leaving him about 100 to spend on whatever he would like.

Now, my group tends to divide treasure evenly. Which means if Bob has 600 gold, then so does Tarduk. Who, assuming chainmail, has 585 gold to spend on whatever he would like. Which would of course be better armor, so he wouldn't pay for the repairs to his chain. Splint is 200, so he still has around 390 gold left for those magical arrows (buffing) and those potions (extras)

So, the wizard got a single new spell, and copied their class level up gains over, while Tarduk upgraded his equipment, bought magical items and potions to buff and heal, and is expecting more potions from Bob who is spending even more money on making Tardek better.

And, if every member of the party got at least 600 gold, that is 2,400 gold at 3rd level, and they'd likely invest in some plate.


And, let us jump ahead to the future of level 9. Where Bob is potentially spending 500 gp just to copy their spells they earned for free, and unless Tarduk is having to pay to maintain 5,000 gold worth of gear he is still paying pennies compared to Bob.


He was in adventure. He rose from 1st to 2nd then from 2nd to 3rd. 4 spells total.

Edit: For clarification, you might not get your free spells in your book immediately, but you do have them prepared as flash of insight. This also means that you might have to unprepare some spells to make room for your insights but it is generaly a minor inconvenience.
Um, an inconvenience?

Wizard's can't prepare a spell they don't have in their book, right? Per RAW, that would mean that unless they prepare these "insight" spells immediately and never un-prepare them they would lose them forever.

And since we are talking levels 2 and 3, where they only have likely 6 to 7 spells for prep, they are locking in over half their spells. That is more than a minor inconvenience.
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
Depends how much money that campaign tends to give out in treasure, I suppose, and what else there is (by the sound of it, little or nothing) to spend it on.

And yes, if the loss of funds is such a nuisance an enterprising wizard could (one would hope!) fairly easily find a way to sell access to her own spells to other wizards or trainees, to make the money back.
Yeah this is true, completely depends on how much loot they have. If they're already loaded this debate is kind of pointless.

Still, I really don't understand this campaign's "ink cost." Even if you're writing pages and pages of spells, you're not going to use much more than a couple of bottles of ink.

So even if this setting is a desert and ink is really rare, it's really weird to imagine someone walking up to a traveling merchant and saying "Hi, I'd like three bottles of ink!" and then dropping a big bag of gold coins in exchange. Hell HP would be jealous of prices like that (and HP has an ink monopoly for their printers!)

I'm not saying you can't have a world like that (DM rules), it just feels like a weird way to impose an extra cost on player's that feels more like a mechanical imposition than a realistic one.

Though the more I think about it, I kind of like the idea of a global cartel that limits the output of ink and therefore all writing, using that power to control transfer of information and shoring up its own money/power. A Facebook/HP amalgamation.
 

Coroc

Hero
I'm not sure what most of that had to do with anything. And unless Helldritch is using your economy instead of the rules in the book, then my numbers are more accurate to what they are doing.



Understood that just fine



Okay, pause button.

So, you never mentioned that the Fighter is paying for repairs before, this does change things.

10% of the value. It looks like your group is still around level 3, so he likely has chainmail still (well, he shouldn't but we'll talk about that in a second)

So, making some number assumptions. Chainmail costs 7.5, shield costs 1, longsword 1.5, and longbow 5

Tarkud the Fighter has spent.... 15 gold on up keeping his equipment.
Bob the Wizard spent 200 just in copying his "free" spells.

In fact, Tarkud could have platemail which costs 150 to upkeep, giving a total of 157.5 gold and still be less.

Which is why he can buy magical arrows (new gear that isn't part of the upkeep) and potions. Which, while Bob can make if I assume you are going with the crafting rules, Bob is still spending money on.


Which, really starts getting ridiculous if we assume everyone has the same amount of gold.

Bob spent 400 gold between copying and buying one spell, assuming he isn't broke and can still afford to buy materials for potionmaking (which he will give to the party) he had to have somewhere between 500 and 600 gold, leaving him about 100 to spend on whatever he would like.

Now, my group tends to divide treasure evenly. Which means if Bob has 600 gold, then so does Tarduk. Who, assuming chainmail, has 585 gold to spend on whatever he would like. Which would of course be better armor, so he wouldn't pay for the repairs to his chain. Splint is 200, so he still has around 390 gold left for those magical arrows (buffing) and those potions (extras)

So, the wizard got a single new spell, and copied their class level up gains over, while Tarduk upgraded his equipment, bought magical items and potions to buff and heal, and is expecting more potions from Bob who is spending even more money on making Tardek better.

And, if every member of the party got at least 600 gold, that is 2,400 gold at 3rd level, and they'd likely invest in some plate.


And, let us jump ahead to the future of level 9. Where Bob is potentially spending 500 gp just to copy their spells they earned for free, and unless Tarduk is having to pay to maintain 5,000 gold worth of gear he is still paying pennies compared to Bob.




Um, an inconvenience?

Wizard's can't prepare a spell they don't have in their book, right? Per RAW, that would mean that unless they prepare these "insight" spells immediately and never un-prepare them they would lose them forever.

And since we are talking levels 2 and 3, where they only have likely 6 to 7 spells for prep, they are locking in over half their spells. That is more than a minor inconvenience.
can't speak for helldritch i simply assumed he got a working economy in his game. With my game the economy works. The wizard never ran short so he couldn't get his level up allotment. At one point in the wild he could copy his level up spells from another wizard, so of course you got to plan for such situations, to not unbalance things i thought this to be self-evident sry if i assumed wrongly.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Why?

What I'm saying is that the book purposefully ignores ink costs for these 2 spells because the designers didn't want to tax the player for their character's evolution. It's a choice favoring conviniency and ease of play over simulationism. Maybe it's not for your group, or the OP's group, that's fine, but it's not a bug, it's a feature.
some folks have this mindset where if person A has more than person B, and someone proposes giving something to person B, they'll claim it's unfair unless you also give the same thing to person A.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
some folks have this mindset where if person A has more than person B, and someone proposes giving something to person B, they'll claim it's unfair unless you also give the same thing to person A.
I suppose it depends on how and why person A has more than person B. ;)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Yeah this is true, completely depends on how much loot they have. If they're already loaded this debate is kind of pointless.

Still, I really don't understand this campaign's "ink cost." Even if you're writing pages and pages of spells, you're not going to use much more than a couple of bottles of ink.
Can't speak for anything official, but in my game magic-grade ink (much higher quality than ordinary run-of-the-mill ink) costs about 20 g.p. per page, and each spell has a page count that varies from 1 to - in at least one case - over 80; with most being in the 5-20 range.

That said, training - and associated fees and charges - is a thing in my game and always will be; and you don't get new spells (or even the extra slots) until you train, but when you do train the cost of the new spell is built in. For fairness, the training fees work on about the same baseline for all classes even though in the fiction it's kinda difficult to justify it for ordinary Fighters.

And with very rare exceptions usually involving Fighters, training can't be done in the field.

So even if this setting is a desert and ink is really rare, it's really weird to imagine someone walking up to a traveling merchant and saying "Hi, I'd like three bottles of ink!" and then dropping a big bag of gold coins in exchange. Hell HP would be jealous of prices like that (and HP has an ink monopoly for their printers!)

Though the more I think about it, I kind of like the idea of a global cartel that limits the output of ink and therefore all writing, using that power to control transfer of information and shoring up its own money/power. A Facebook/HP amalgamation.
This could be the seed for a great backstory and long-term plot, but rather than a single BBEG you're up against what amounts to a worldwide corporation or cartel (think SPECTRE but without Blofeld as a central leader), with the heroes' goal being to bring literacy - and therefore education - to the masses!
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Can't speak for anything official, but in my game magic-grade ink (much higher quality than ordinary run-of-the-mill ink) costs about 20 g.p. per page, and each spell has a page count that varies from 1 to - in at least one case - over 80; with most being in the 5-20 range.

That said, training - and associated fees and charges - is a thing in my game and always will be; and you don't get new spells (or even the extra slots) until you train, but when you do train the cost of the new spell is built in. For fairness, the training fees work on about the same baseline for all classes even though in the fiction it's kinda difficult to justify it for ordinary Fighters.

And with very rare exceptions usually involving Fighters, training can't be done in the field.

This could be the seed for a great backstory and long-term plot, but rather than a single BBEG you're up against what amounts to a worldwide corporation or cartel (think SPECTRE but without Blofeld as a central leader), with the heroes' goal being to bring literacy - and therefore education - to the masses!
What exactly is the logic behind requiring training to level?

Downtime I can see the logic, but training?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
What exactly is the logic behind requiring training to level?

Downtime I can see the logic, but training?
You take the theory class first, then go out in the field and put that theory into practice. When you're comfortable with that and ready to learn more theory, back into the classroom you go for another round of theory. That's how most training I've ever done tends to work - best example I can think of is a learn-to-sail course I took as a kid. First half of each lesson was classroom theory, second half was out on the water putting that theory into practice (or, more often, showing we hadn't listened to a word the instructor had just said in the class, but whatever... :) )

So, before 1st-level you're assumed to have already done that round of theory training - which can take years for anyone other than Fighters - in order to become whatever class you are. After you bump to 2nd you're up for another round of theory training into whatever new abilities that level provides, so you do it and then back into the field you go. Lather rinse repeat.
 

We opted for a money sink cash approach. It is not training but upkeep in armor, weapons. magical consumables and downtime living expanses. To each his own I guess. As long as players have money to spend it on.
 

dnd4vr

The Smurfiest Wizard Ever!
We opted for a money sink cash approach. It is not training but upkeep in armor, weapons. magical consumables and downtime living expanses. To each his own I guess. As long as players have money to spend it on.
You know, for the fun of it I just checked out our current coin horde for our main campaign (over 18 months of play, 14-15th level PCs) and our collective group has over 185,000 gp saved up. (Hence, why we are rebuilding a ruined castle.) I don't know in comparison if that is "a lot" or not since I don't know how other games run, but it seems towards the high end? FWIW, we equate 1 GP = $100 USD, so we are sitting on over 18 million dollars right now.

I really need to ask the other players, "Why haven't we retired yet???"
 

A single archmage's spellbooks cyclopedia (as in multiple spellbook, writting a spell takes a lot of pages) in my campaigns in Greyhawk could fetch well over half a million gold pieces, depending on the spells in it. The more common spells are worth a lot less. The more specialised the spell, the costlier, up to a 15,000 gp for a 9th level rare spell. Meteor swarm could go for less, maybe half. In the earlier post, I gave the maximum cost for convenience. Of course some spells are more rare than others due to their specialized status. Such spells are spread across all levels. You rarely see a sorcerer taking arcane lock (even a wizard for that matter, depending on his spec) as his prime choice of spell. This is why arcane lock is considered a "rare" spell in my campaign. The more damage oriented spells or "auto win" spells are usually common knowledge. The costs I gave are usually for the rarest spells. Still 7th trough 9th level spell are almost always of the rare type.

I still have rules for castle and fiefdoms expanses, church buildings and expanses as well as the thiefguild management rules of decades ago. It is not only the mage that have money sinks and means of making money out of adventure, all other characters can do so. No exceptions. With hindsight, I now see what the powergamer was trying to achieve. An early start on his laboratory. Every gold counts and it could mean a nice headstart for him. He could acquire a good laboratory at 10th or 11th level instead of having to wait for 12th level as most other wizards are doing. (we are talking spell research here, not potion making or enchanting.) I should've seen it way before that, but being called on such an old rule as being too strict unbalanced me. Other than a few minor quirks here there, we play by the rules. What we add is usually for high level play in mind so that characters have something other than dungeon delving at high level.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
You take the theory class first, then go out in the field and put that theory into practice. When you're comfortable with that and ready to learn more theory, back into the classroom you go for another round of theory. That's how most training I've ever done tends to work - best example I can think of is a learn-to-sail course I took as a kid. First half of each lesson was classroom theory, second half was out on the water putting that theory into practice (or, more often, showing we hadn't listened to a word the instructor had just said in the class, but whatever... :) )

So, before 1st-level you're assumed to have already done that round of theory training - which can take years for anyone other than Fighters - in order to become whatever class you are. After you bump to 2nd you're up for another round of theory training into whatever new abilities that level provides, so you do it and then back into the field you go. Lather rinse repeat.
I have never learned any hands-on skill in that way, past perhaps the very most basic safety stuff, like how to use a table saw without hurting yourself, or what the dials on a torch do.

I learned to work on cars 100% in a shop, on the job, on customers' cars. I learned to climb, hike, and catch crawdads in the canyon and river near my hometown. Some stuff can work that way, sure, but the idea that all skills work that way is...just really strange, to me.

More importantly, I got better at those things primarily by continuing to do them, and by taking on more challenging iterations of those tasks.

Sure, it makes sense for swordfighters to train and spar with other fighters, and learn new techniques that way, but to model that somewhat rationally in the game world you'd have to treat fighting techniques like the game treats wizard spells.

Don't get me wrong, I want to do that, with an optional suite of abilities, feats, and at least one subclass or new class, but you absolutely don't have to go spend downtime training with someone to get better at fighting when you're already a "professional" level fighter. Fighting other people who are at or above the same level of skill, teaching others, etc, will make you better.
 

The mindset of Lanefan (and mine too by the way) probably comes from 1ed where you were not a full fledge wizard until level 11, a full fledge fighter until 9th and so on. This was called name level. Before that, you were only learning how to do your job. With name level came reputation and a sense of achievement that is no longer there in newer editions.

Without name level, I went the expenses for all. Lanefan kept the training. I think both approaches are quite valid.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The mindset of Lanefan (and mine too by the way) probably comes from 1ed where you were not a full fledge wizard until level 11, a full fledge fighter until 9th and so on. This was called name level. Before that, you were only learning how to do your job. With name level came reputation and a sense of achievement that is no longer there in newer editions.

Without name level, I went the expenses for all. Lanefan kept the training. I think both approaches are quite valid.
I mean, all they need to be valid is to be enjoyable by the group using them.

I just want to make sense of them from any perspective other than trying to make the game feel more like an older edition. Nothing wrong with that, but if that is the only real rationale to it, let me know and I'll no longer be curious about it.
 

Monayuris

Adventurer
For the first time, a player called me too strict for a ruling I made.
Here is the ruling:" Although the wizard learns too free spells to add to his spell book, I ruled that the wizard still have to pay for the materials (inks) to write it in his spell book." I also ruled that you can only add spells during downtime unless you want to risk a failure in case you are attacked during the transcription.

My reasons are two folds.
1) By Raw, the spells are free to add. But right in the side bar they say that whenever you find a new spell you have to copy in your spell book.

2) The spells do not appear out of nowhere. You have to have the special inks to put them in your spell book.

I gave the following example: A group is in the desert. They barely have enough food to get by. They have a weapon, an empty backpack (almost, the dried camel is stored in their backpack) and in case of caster, they have a spell focus. The group rise in level, they are now level 3! Yeah! The wizard adds two spells to his spell book but where did the ink came from? Did the spell appeared out of nowhere?

Nope, the new spells are a sudden inspiration. The wizard knows them, he gets them in his mind but now if he wants to change them, he needs to find ink to copy them in his spell book. Yes, they were free as in he did not buy them from an other wizard, he did not have to capture the spell book of an enemy, he did not have to make a quest to know it. But otherwise, he has to abide by the side bar.

I am a bit old school. Spells costs a lot in my campaign. First and second level spells cost 50 gold pieces per level just to copy. You still need to have the inks to copy them.
third through fifth level cost 250 gp per levels and 6th to 8th level are 1000 gold per level. A single spell of 9th level costs 15,000 gold and that is IF the other caster is friendly, very friendly to you (as in, (s)he owes you BIG TIME).

Is this too strict? Money to copy and acquire spell is a big money sink in my games and that is at all levels.
I have the feeling that he wants them totally free only to make more low level scrolls during downtime.
Makes perfect sense to me.

I wouldn't think twice about this ruling if I was a wizard player in your game.

I agree that spell costs should matter in the game. I consider the official rules of two free spells, on leveling, to be quite generous. I prefer that wizards find their spells, but it does make some abstract sense that the wizard is working on their own in downtime, so I don't really make a big deal out of it when I run.
 

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