Why?Then the DM should handwave several thousand gold pieces my cleric's way.
He was in adventure. He rose from 1st to 2nd then from 2nd to 3rd. 4 spells total.Wait, why is he copying 4 spells?
I'm not sure what most of that had to do with anything. And unless Helldritch is using your economy instead of the rules in the book, then my numbers are more accurate to what they are doing.Nah, nah, no please don't. I wrote a WORKING ECONOMY. D&D 5e (and every other edition) had NONE as per RAW.
First it would be 200 Silver in my case for the starting.
I did a working economy for my greyhawk campaign (and every other) but I go nothing like RAW.
I try to give you some examples from my in game pricelist on how to eventually do that:
I my games it is 1g is 20s is 240c to reflect some reality.
So in my campaign a stiletto is 10s a two handed sword is 100s.
A buffed armor (AC12) is 20s a breastplate is 100s a full plate is 800s and needs to be bodyfitted
A mage scroll is (Spell-level)^2 x 100s, so 100s for a level 1 scroll and 8100s for a level 9 scroll.
Those scrolls can be used for oneshot or copying into spellbook, I do not bother about ink and stuff it is minor expense.
You see now the fighter comes with 200s, so e.g. he can buy a two handed sword and a breastplate, and the wizard gets 2 level 1 scrolls for that dosh.
Of course you got to steer the treasure from the beginning, normally every humanoid drops a few silver e.g 1d6 for an orc.
I hope that clarifies it a bit what I mean
Understood that just fineI think some people here are confusing paying for additional spells and paying for copying.
Bob the wizard is now third level. He has the chance to be in town.
He leveled in the field so now he wants to copy his new spells into his spellbook.
2 first level must be copied. It cost him 100 gold to get them down.
2 second level must be copied. Both are of his school so again 100 gold to get them down.
He wants to add a third spell second level spell. He goes to the local wizard that thought him magic and wants to add the blur spell to his spell book. Being a former apprentice, the wizard charge him 100 gold for the right of copying the spell. It costs an other 100 gold in inks.
Okay, pause button.And it goes both ways.
Meanwhile, Tarkud the Fighter, pays for the repairs to his armor, shield and weapons (about 10% of their value). He buys new magical arrows and goes to the alchemist and apothecary to buy potions. He knows that Bob will make a few potions of fire resistance but he does not expect that Bob will have time to make a lot of them. Maybe two or three. So better check with the local alchemist. Healing potions are costly too but hey... At least they turned up a good profit on this adventure. The same goes with Albrecht the priest, and all the other characters. Everyone pays for something.
Um, an inconvenience?He was in adventure. He rose from 1st to 2nd then from 2nd to 3rd. 4 spells total.
Edit: For clarification, you might not get your free spells in your book immediately, but you do have them prepared as flash of insight. This also means that you might have to unprepare some spells to make room for your insights but it is generaly a minor inconvenience.
Yeah this is true, completely depends on how much loot they have. If they're already loaded this debate is kind of pointless.Depends how much money that campaign tends to give out in treasure, I suppose, and what else there is (by the sound of it, little or nothing) to spend it on.
And yes, if the loss of funds is such a nuisance an enterprising wizard could (one would hope!) fairly easily find a way to sell access to her own spells to other wizards or trainees, to make the money back.
can't speak for helldritch i simply assumed he got a working economy in his game. With my game the economy works. The wizard never ran short so he couldn't get his level up allotment. At one point in the wild he could copy his level up spells from another wizard, so of course you got to plan for such situations, to not unbalance things i thought this to be self-evident sry if i assumed wrongly.I'm not sure what most of that had to do with anything. And unless Helldritch is using your economy instead of the rules in the book, then my numbers are more accurate to what they are doing.
Understood that just fine
Okay, pause button.
So, you never mentioned that the Fighter is paying for repairs before, this does change things.
10% of the value. It looks like your group is still around level 3, so he likely has chainmail still (well, he shouldn't but we'll talk about that in a second)
So, making some number assumptions. Chainmail costs 7.5, shield costs 1, longsword 1.5, and longbow 5
Tarkud the Fighter has spent.... 15 gold on up keeping his equipment.
Bob the Wizard spent 200 just in copying his "free" spells.
In fact, Tarkud could have platemail which costs 150 to upkeep, giving a total of 157.5 gold and still be less.
Which is why he can buy magical arrows (new gear that isn't part of the upkeep) and potions. Which, while Bob can make if I assume you are going with the crafting rules, Bob is still spending money on.
Which, really starts getting ridiculous if we assume everyone has the same amount of gold.
Bob spent 400 gold between copying and buying one spell, assuming he isn't broke and can still afford to buy materials for potionmaking (which he will give to the party) he had to have somewhere between 500 and 600 gold, leaving him about 100 to spend on whatever he would like.
Now, my group tends to divide treasure evenly. Which means if Bob has 600 gold, then so does Tarduk. Who, assuming chainmail, has 585 gold to spend on whatever he would like. Which would of course be better armor, so he wouldn't pay for the repairs to his chain. Splint is 200, so he still has around 390 gold left for those magical arrows (buffing) and those potions (extras)
So, the wizard got a single new spell, and copied their class level up gains over, while Tarduk upgraded his equipment, bought magical items and potions to buff and heal, and is expecting more potions from Bob who is spending even more money on making Tardek better.
And, if every member of the party got at least 600 gold, that is 2,400 gold at 3rd level, and they'd likely invest in some plate.
And, let us jump ahead to the future of level 9. Where Bob is potentially spending 500 gp just to copy their spells they earned for free, and unless Tarduk is having to pay to maintain 5,000 gold worth of gear he is still paying pennies compared to Bob.
Um, an inconvenience?
Wizard's can't prepare a spell they don't have in their book, right? Per RAW, that would mean that unless they prepare these "insight" spells immediately and never un-prepare them they would lose them forever.
And since we are talking levels 2 and 3, where they only have likely 6 to 7 spells for prep, they are locking in over half their spells. That is more than a minor inconvenience.
some folks have this mindset where if person A has more than person B, and someone proposes giving something to person B, they'll claim it's unfair unless you also give the same thing to person A.Why?
What I'm saying is that the book purposefully ignores ink costs for these 2 spells because the designers didn't want to tax the player for their character's evolution. It's a choice favoring conviniency and ease of play over simulationism. Maybe it's not for your group, or the OP's group, that's fine, but it's not a bug, it's a feature.
I suppose it depends on how and why person A has more than person B.some folks have this mindset where if person A has more than person B, and someone proposes giving something to person B, they'll claim it's unfair unless you also give the same thing to person A.
Can't speak for anything official, but in my game magic-grade ink (much higher quality than ordinary run-of-the-mill ink) costs about 20 g.p. per page, and each spell has a page count that varies from 1 to - in at least one case - over 80; with most being in the 5-20 range.Yeah this is true, completely depends on how much loot they have. If they're already loaded this debate is kind of pointless.
Still, I really don't understand this campaign's "ink cost." Even if you're writing pages and pages of spells, you're not going to use much more than a couple of bottles of ink.
This could be the seed for a great backstory and long-term plot, but rather than a single BBEG you're up against what amounts to a worldwide corporation or cartel (think SPECTRE but without Blofeld as a central leader), with the heroes' goal being to bring literacy - and therefore education - to the masses!So even if this setting is a desert and ink is really rare, it's really weird to imagine someone walking up to a traveling merchant and saying "Hi, I'd like three bottles of ink!" and then dropping a big bag of gold coins in exchange. Hell HP would be jealous of prices like that (and HP has an ink monopoly for their printers!)
Though the more I think about it, I kind of like the idea of a global cartel that limits the output of ink and therefore all writing, using that power to control transfer of information and shoring up its own money/power. A Facebook/HP amalgamation.
What exactly is the logic behind requiring training to level?Can't speak for anything official, but in my game magic-grade ink (much higher quality than ordinary run-of-the-mill ink) costs about 20 g.p. per page, and each spell has a page count that varies from 1 to - in at least one case - over 80; with most being in the 5-20 range.
That said, training - and associated fees and charges - is a thing in my game and always will be; and you don't get new spells (or even the extra slots) until you train, but when you do train the cost of the new spell is built in. For fairness, the training fees work on about the same baseline for all classes even though in the fiction it's kinda difficult to justify it for ordinary Fighters.
And with very rare exceptions usually involving Fighters, training can't be done in the field.
This could be the seed for a great backstory and long-term plot, but rather than a single BBEG you're up against what amounts to a worldwide corporation or cartel (think SPECTRE but without Blofeld as a central leader), with the heroes' goal being to bring literacy - and therefore education - to the masses!
You take the theory class first, then go out in the field and put that theory into practice. When you're comfortable with that and ready to learn more theory, back into the classroom you go for another round of theory. That's how most training I've ever done tends to work - best example I can think of is a learn-to-sail course I took as a kid. First half of each lesson was classroom theory, second half was out on the water putting that theory into practice (or, more often, showing we hadn't listened to a word the instructor had just said in the class, but whatever... )What exactly is the logic behind requiring training to level?
Downtime I can see the logic, but training?
You know, for the fun of it I just checked out our current coin horde for our main campaign (over 18 months of play, 14-15th level PCs) and our collective group has over 185,000 gp saved up. (Hence, why we are rebuilding a ruined castle.) I don't know in comparison if that is "a lot" or not since I don't know how other games run, but it seems towards the high end? FWIW, we equate 1 GP = $100 USD, so we are sitting on over 18 million dollars right now.We opted for a money sink cash approach. It is not training but upkeep in armor, weapons. magical consumables and downtime living expanses. To each his own I guess. As long as players have money to spend it on.
I have never learned any hands-on skill in that way, past perhaps the very most basic safety stuff, like how to use a table saw without hurting yourself, or what the dials on a torch do.You take the theory class first, then go out in the field and put that theory into practice. When you're comfortable with that and ready to learn more theory, back into the classroom you go for another round of theory. That's how most training I've ever done tends to work - best example I can think of is a learn-to-sail course I took as a kid. First half of each lesson was classroom theory, second half was out on the water putting that theory into practice (or, more often, showing we hadn't listened to a word the instructor had just said in the class, but whatever... )
So, before 1st-level you're assumed to have already done that round of theory training - which can take years for anyone other than Fighters - in order to become whatever class you are. After you bump to 2nd you're up for another round of theory training into whatever new abilities that level provides, so you do it and then back into the field you go. Lather rinse repeat.
I mean, all they need to be valid is to be enjoyable by the group using them.The mindset of Lanefan (and mine too by the way) probably comes from 1ed where you were not a full fledge wizard until level 11, a full fledge fighter until 9th and so on. This was called name level. Before that, you were only learning how to do your job. With name level came reputation and a sense of achievement that is no longer there in newer editions.
Without name level, I went the expenses for all. Lanefan kept the training. I think both approaches are quite valid.
Makes perfect sense to me.For the first time, a player called me too strict for a ruling I made.
Here is the ruling:" Although the wizard learns too free spells to add to his spell book, I ruled that the wizard still have to pay for the materials (inks) to write it in his spell book." I also ruled that you can only add spells during downtime unless you want to risk a failure in case you are attacked during the transcription.
My reasons are two folds.
1) By Raw, the spells are free to add. But right in the side bar they say that whenever you find a new spell you have to copy in your spell book.
2) The spells do not appear out of nowhere. You have to have the special inks to put them in your spell book.
I gave the following example: A group is in the desert. They barely have enough food to get by. They have a weapon, an empty backpack (almost, the dried camel is stored in their backpack) and in case of caster, they have a spell focus. The group rise in level, they are now level 3! Yeah! The wizard adds two spells to his spell book but where did the ink came from? Did the spell appeared out of nowhere?
Nope, the new spells are a sudden inspiration. The wizard knows them, he gets them in his mind but now if he wants to change them, he needs to find ink to copy them in his spell book. Yes, they were free as in he did not buy them from an other wizard, he did not have to capture the spell book of an enemy, he did not have to make a quest to know it. But otherwise, he has to abide by the side bar.
I am a bit old school. Spells costs a lot in my campaign. First and second level spells cost 50 gold pieces per level just to copy. You still need to have the inks to copy them.
third through fifth level cost 250 gp per levels and 6th to 8th level are 1000 gold per level. A single spell of 9th level costs 15,000 gold and that is IF the other caster is friendly, very friendly to you (as in, (s)he owes you BIG TIME).
Is this too strict? Money to copy and acquire spell is a big money sink in my games and that is at all levels.
I have the feeling that he wants them totally free only to make more low level scrolls during downtime.