D&D 5E (2014) Amber Temple Vestiges [CoS spoilers!]

[DEFCON 1]

How can D&D have cannon? Literally everything that happens at my table has nothing to do with whatever happens at your table. And every edition they re-write all the gods, powers, power sources, etc. anyway. Are there novels that people are talking about? Even still, the entire point of D&D is that you make your own stories, so there's no real "centralized" world to speak of. Even stuff like Forgotten Realms and Eberron are just basically lore modules you can bolt on as you like.

You can't be a Master of something if there's nothing to master.

 

[Jester David]

Sounds like 100% percent of DMs I know. Isn't that the point of having a game instead of just a novel series?

What DMs do is one thing, what official adventures and products do is another.

How can D&D have cannon? Literally everything that happens at my table has nothing to do with whatever happens at your table. And every edition they re-write all the gods, powers, power sources, etc. anyway. Are there novels that people are talking about? Even still, the entire point of D&D is that you make your own stories, so there's no real "centralized" world to speak of. Even stuff like Forgotten Realms and Eberron are just basically lore modules you can bolt on as you like.

D&D kinda has canon, as expressed through the novels, adventures, and rulebooks. It's not always solid canon, but there's a canon. Demon lord X is the lord of layer X and such.
And settings very much have canon. Each adventure is assumed to take place, the changes for the rules are explained through in-world events, and the like.

 

[evilbob]

D&D kinda has canon, as expressed through the novels, adventures, and rulebooks.

Eh, maybe it's just semantics, but what you're calling "canon" I'd call "suggestions." Definitely not anything stronger than "suggestions," since I'm pretty sure I've ignored some or all of those things in every game I've run, and that doesn't invalidate anything.

And settings very much have canon.

Ok, sure, I'm with you there. I have never personally followed these so I didn't know how strict they were about that sort of thing, but if that's your thing that makes sense.

 

[77IM]

This thread is 100% pure awesome.

That leaves me wondering how she ended up being reduced to a mere vestige and trapped in the temple.

This works on a metafictional level: any big bad bugaboo from previous D&D editions that most players have forgotten about becomes a vestige. ;}

EDIT: I'll bet the wizards who trapped the vestiges in the temple were the Wizards of the Coast. They trapped the vestiges there for trademark reasons, to maintain them forever as Product Identity.

 

[Lancelot]

To get this thread back on the track of "any ideas about the listed vestiges?"...

Shalx (listed on one of the tombs) could be a variant of Shax, who was one of the vestiges listed in Tome of Magic.

Also, some of the names could be variants for other vestiges or entities from D&D lore. Look at how many names historical deities in our own world have possessed. Take Thor/Donar as an example; Wikipedia has a separate entry for "Names of Thor", with 14 different entries.

This gives the DM some leeway in having names for his/her own preferred entities. Pick one of the named vestiges that sounds appropriate and bingo! It's actually another name for Amon, Geryon, Moloch, Ansitif, Asteroth, or anyone else you'd like to add.

 

[pukunui]

To get this thread back on the track of "any ideas about the listed vestiges?"...

Thanks!

 

[Mouseferatu]

For those who don't already know, most of the vestige names back when they were first introduced in the 3E Tome of Magic--those that weren't references to existing D&D entities, anyway--were taken from the Goetia and the Lesser Key of Solomon. Some of the "close but not quite" names in CoS may simply be other variants from the same source.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Given the canon hatchet job done to Strahd and Ravenloft in the module, and the Cult of the Dragon & Tiamat in ToD, and ignoring of Greyhawk for Elemental Evil I imagine it wasn't so much a question of Savage Tide not being canon as them not caring.

Tiamat having influence in the Cult of the Dragon is a long running thing. And they did not ignore Greyhawk for Elemental Evil. They even put in a greyhawk section at the end of the book. They just made a FR adventure featuring the forces of Elemental Evil like the Princes. (Who actually did not have anything to do with the original one. Were it was all Zuggtmoy and Iuz.)

A few months ago I might have bought it. Now I think the misread prophecy angle was just a happy coincidence that didn't contradict.

And there's still the issue of how Tiamat ended up "trapped in the Nine Hells".

They had their story to tell, canon be damned. What worked worked, and what didn't was made to work.

Tiamat has almost always had her domain in the Nine Hells. 4e moved her to Banehold for some reason.

The way she ended up back was explained by Greenwood.

 

[Jester David]

Tiamat having influence in the Cult of the Dragon is a long running thing.

It was never their primary thing though. It changed the entire focus and purpose of the cult to further their Tiamat story.

And they did not ignore Greyhawk for Elemental Evil. They even put in a greyhawk section at the end of the book. They just made a FR adventure featuring the forces of Elemental Evil like the Princes. (Who actually did not have anything to do with the original one. Were it was all Zuggtmoy and Iuz.)

They took a Greyhawk story and moved it to the Realms. Sounds pretty ignory to me.

Tiamat has almost always had her domain in the Nine Hells. 4e moved her to Banehold for some reason.

The way she ended up back was explained by Greenwood.

Explained independently by Ed Greenwood since WotC offered no explanation or reason. It's somewhat official - being penned by the creator of the setting - but not really as it's not in an official book.


The fact remains WotC had their story to tell. They really wanted Tiamat to attack with dragons, a retelling of Temple of Elemental Evil, a demon invasion of the Underdark, and a retelling of Castle Ravenloft. And they're going to do what they want and make it work, even if it's not a good fit for the world and canon. They haven't told three Forgotten Realms adventures, they've told three generic adventures that have been forced into the Realms but could have just as easily been set anywhere.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The fact remains WotC had their story to tell. They really wanted Tiamat to attack with dragons, a retelling of Temple of Elemental Evil, a demon invasion of the Underdark, and a retelling of Castle Ravenloft. And they're going to do what they want and make it work, even if it's not a good fit for the world and canon. They haven't told three Forgotten Realms adventures, they've told three generic adventures that have been forced into the Realms but could have just as easily been set anywhere.

Well, it's a good thing we have you here to tell us they aren't Forgotten Realms adventures then!