D&D 3E/3.5 Ambidexterity in 3.5
- Thread starter Dareoon Dalandrove
- Start date
Since we are breaking this down from a power gamers perspective, lets do it.
Proposal from OP: Ambidexterity, TWF for penalty-less TWF.
2 feats used. During full attack action, 1 extra attack at max bonus.
Lets assume a str of 14 and a dex of 14.
The other side of the fence.
Two Hand Power Strike, Weapon Focus: Greatsword.
Strength of 17.
Assuming level 1:
TWF: +3/+3 Hits with dual shortswords(less feats) for 1d6+2, and 1d6+1. Assuming an average ac of 14 for dex +1 leather armor having enemies, he will hit roughly %50 of the time, for an avg of 4.5 dmg/rd.
THF: +5. 2d6 +6. Same enemy as above, focused in greatsword, and has one. He will hit roughly %55 of the time, for 13/hit, for an avg of 6.5 per round.(roughly)
When TWF gets another feat, for ITWF, TWD, or others, THF gets Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization, etc.
The fact is, TWF is only good if you have sneak attack, or weapons with massive bonus dice. If you are straight up fighting, you need a massive sword or axe and all your feats focused on beatdown, not on getting one more weak attack. That said, I prefer TWF without ambidexterity, as it means it costs you less feats to get. Feats are valuable.
Proposal from OP: Ambidexterity, TWF for penalty-less TWF.
2 feats used. During full attack action, 1 extra attack at max bonus.
Lets assume a str of 14 and a dex of 14.
The other side of the fence.
Two Hand Power Strike, Weapon Focus: Greatsword.
Strength of 17.
Assuming level 1:
TWF: +3/+3 Hits with dual shortswords(less feats) for 1d6+2, and 1d6+1. Assuming an average ac of 14 for dex +1 leather armor having enemies, he will hit roughly %50 of the time, for an avg of 4.5 dmg/rd.
THF: +5. 2d6 +6. Same enemy as above, focused in greatsword, and has one. He will hit roughly %55 of the time, for 13/hit, for an avg of 6.5 per round.(roughly)
When TWF gets another feat, for ITWF, TWD, or others, THF gets Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization, etc.
The fact is, TWF is only good if you have sneak attack, or weapons with massive bonus dice. If you are straight up fighting, you need a massive sword or axe and all your feats focused on beatdown, not on getting one more weak attack. That said, I prefer TWF without ambidexterity, as it means it costs you less feats to get. Feats are valuable.
Of course since defense and offense are not balanced in D&D, the scaling favors the TWF as levels go up. However, they will want the extended feats in TWF and the shortsword feats, which leaves them nothing else. THF will have all their general combat feats much easier.
And I still prefer sword and shield personally.
And I still prefer sword and shield personally.
Seeten said:
That's right. If you aren't a rogue, then TWF sucks big time. That's why there are multiple prestige classes aimed at the simple task of making that fighting style suck less.
The main problem is that they require many feats just to make it nearly equal to two-handed weapons (two-weapon fighting + one feat per iterative attack), and in addition to that, you are way behind whenever you don't get a full attack (which is nearly half of the time), and you are worse off at power attacking, and you need to pay for two weapons.
It's really not worth it and I don't think it would be balanced even if you gave every two weapon fighter full STR to dmg on both weapons for free. Having people pay a feat for it would only add to the cost of a very suboptimal fighting style.
Lol I have seen quite a few TWF fighters that would put a 2 handed user in the grave. Very few 2 handed fighters that could kill the TWF fighter quickly enough not to lose. Just limiting it to one attack is THE ONLY WAY a 2 handed fighter is superior. After awhile it just comes down to multiple critical chances from the sheer number of dice rolled on a full attack. Mix the fighter with another damage add class an it just gets worse. Heck give the TWF fighter 2 defending weapons and it becomes a sad day for the 2 hander. Give the TWF fighter 2 keen +xxx+xxxburst weapons and it becomes even further unbalanced. The 2 handed fighter has an advantage at lower levels but doesnt have a candle of a shot at later levels
After his 1 weapon was sundered yes he would be in trouble or after he was disarmed.... the grave indeeed.... Even within the noncampaign specific WOTC material there are a few ways to get full attacks at the end of a move (or a charge) 2 handed fighter in very big trouble good bye your fighter is now dead unless you run away. In fact a 2 handed fighter CANNOT get as high of an AC as the TWF fighter if they both maxed the AC capabilities of a fighter. This is pointless we will just need to disagree on this one
reanjr
First Post
Dareoon Dalandrove said:
The reason why is that two-weapon fighting is underpowered as it is. Requiring an additional feat is unbalancing to those wishing to use that style. Logically it makes sense to include it. But the game also doesn't support any method of disabling someone's good hand (called shots or something), so...
As far as the plethora of adventurers who seem to be ambidextrous, I'd require it to be a first-level only feat.
If you put it back in, I would humbly suggest rolling two-weapon fighting and improved two-weapon fighting together in one feat to balance. Could throw greater two-weapon fighting in as well. It really doesn't make a balance problem (for various reasons). Removing the penalty entirely almost dictates that someone use that fighting-style when available, though. I would keep the penalties the same; I think it adds tactical decision-making.
Whats your bottom line answer?
Does ambidexterity become unbalancing for a TWF?
If so why?
Since WoTC felt it appropriate to put out the Tempest PrC. The Tempest gets Ambidexterity and Improved Ambidextery as class features that reduce TWF penalties to 0?
That amounts to at least 5 feats and 4 Tempest levels to get no penalties to TWF. If a player wants to put that many feats and time into a PrC to be able to do that, I think he should be able to do so.
Should Ambidexterity and Improved Ambidexterity be offered as feats for other TWF's without requiring a PrC?
Does ambidexterity become unbalancing for a TWF?
If so why?
Since WoTC felt it appropriate to put out the Tempest PrC. The Tempest gets Ambidexterity and Improved Ambidextery as class features that reduce TWF penalties to 0?
That amounts to at least 5 feats and 4 Tempest levels to get no penalties to TWF. If a player wants to put that many feats and time into a PrC to be able to do that, I think he should be able to do so.
Should Ambidexterity and Improved Ambidexterity be offered as feats for other TWF's without requiring a PrC?
