Ampersand: Graz'zt from MoP

[Hellzon]

This also leads to a bad thought: were any of the bound Primordials sucked into the abyss? And what exactly did they turn in to?

The MM says that's exactly what happened to Demogorgon, Baphomet and Orcus. Or did you mean other primordials?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

(and I'm pretty sure that anyone who really likes early backstories for Grazzt can easily use older material instead, right?)

Are you sure about that? I've heard from a reliable source* that all old source material will disintegrate itself once the 4E equivalent is produced.
I'd strongly recommend checking your older rulebooks and see if they actually still contain anything more then dust before making any such claims.

*) The source also suggested me that, if you want to avoid that, you should put the book in a micro-wave. This will kill the RFID self-destruct chips.
Who is this source, you ask? I won't tell you...

Spoiler

The source is my vivid imagination.

 

[Intrope]

The MM says that's exactly what happened to Demogorgon, Baphomet and Orcus. Or did you mean other primordials?

Oh? Admittedly, I haven't seen the MM (I'm not running a game, and I like some surprises!) But I hadn't gotten that impression from the Worlds & Monsters stuff. I'm not sure if I like that; on the other hand, it adds a certain amount of...credibility...to Orcus, et al. In previous editions, it really wasn't obvious why the gods of light didn't just destroy the demon princes/devil lords; they were, after all, not gods.

Now, smiting devil lords involves picking a fight with Asmodeus the god--and smacking a demon prince involves going up against former primordials (who nearly beat the gods in the first place...).

 

[Klaus]

Oh? Admittedly, I haven't seen the MM (I'm not running a game, and I like some surprises!) But I hadn't gotten that impression from the Worlds & Monsters stuff. I'm not sure if I like that; on the other hand, it adds a certain amount of...credibility...to Orcus, et al. In previous editions, it really wasn't obvious why the gods of light didn't just destroy the demon princes/devil lords; they were, after all, not gods.

Now, smiting devil lords involves picking a fight with Asmodeus the god--and smacking a demon prince involves going up against former primordials (who nearly beat the gods in the first place...).

And mind you, it wasn't "Primordials vs. Gods of Light". There were all manner of gods fighting the Primordials.

 

[Robbastard]

Instead, Graz'zt's origins have largely remained unknown prior to his fateful meeting with the demonologist Iggwilv and his imprisonment in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.

Since the 4th edition version presents him as a _former_ devil who is currently a demon, they're essentially presenting him exactly as he first appeared in the Gary Gygax AD&D module "The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth," which was his first appearance in print.

Here's a summary of things about Graz'zt that have been changed in 4e:

1. Prior to him appearing in the "story" of D&D, he turned into a demon after being a devil.

2. Pale Night is his mother.

Granted, Graz'zt's parentage isn't mentioned in the new article, but one would assume that an obyrinth demon lord doesn't give birth to devils. Unless, of course, Graz'zt's daddy is a devil--one would think he would have to be a powerful devil indeed for Graz'zt to have been born a devil--probably an archdevil, maybe even Asmodeus himself, which adds an interesting twist.

The proof will be in future use of Graz'zt. Will they go out of their way change it so there is "no such thing" as Iggwilv (doubtful given the picture accompanying the article) . . .

I thought that was Iggwilv, too, on first glance--then I noticed the multiple arms & snakish lower body, & realized it's a type V demon (or marilith, for you kids.

 

[Shroomy]

2. Pale Night is his mother.

Granted, Graz'zt's parentage isn't mentioned in the new article, but one would assume that an obyrinth demon lord doesn't give birth to devils. Unless, of course, Graz'zt's daddy is a devil--one would think he would have to be a powerful devil indeed for Graz'zt to have been born a devil--probably an archdevil, maybe even Asmodeus himself, which adds an interesting twist.

They did keep a connection between Pale Night and Baphomet, but I however they end up using Pale Night, I don't think she'll be the mother of Graz'zt, at least not biologically. Maybe they'll go a figurative route.

I also don't think that WotC is going to ditch Iggwilv since they're still using her name in the title of the article series.