Ampersand: Graz'zt from MoP

Maybe this is one of the ambiguities of the new cosmology that allows DMs to decide for themselves. Can a creature change its origin? Or can the Elemental Chaos and the Abyss change someone if they are there for too long?

Given that ice devils were originally demons, but are now considered immortal creatures, yes, it's clear that under certain circumstances, the entire origin/nature of a creature can indeed be shifted by the intercession of great powers or by its long-term environment.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

This.

Previously you had lots of details and you could choose to use it or not. There was material to inspire new DMs and players alike. With 4e there's very little information, and very little to inspire any new players or DMs. This may improve as time goes on with 4e, but the books thus far released suggest otherwise with the lack of flavor they've provided.

Flavour should be in books like the draconomicon, and campaign guides, not the core books. Personally I was really happy with the mm as it allows the dm to fit those creatures in where he wants to. And just the little info we have gives me a lot of ideas on how to use gratz if I was going to run a campaign. Oooh a situation where Gratzz is sceeming against demegorgon who is trying to retrieve something from the material plane and the players are trying to stop demigorgon as well so Grattz offers to help them, or just does it without even telling them. Could make for an interesting situation.

See that took all of five minutes, I dont see why you need more info, or an entire plane of fire, how or when or why would anyone go to a plane of nothing but fire? From a game point it was useless.
 

You're confusing a purposeful question (Let's make this ambiguous so people can decide) with laziness (Countless typos in every article, errata longer then I am, the mix up between poison and acid damage, lack of understanding of the very fluff you're supposed to work with).
Or maybe I am not confusing them, and in my game ideas like this are left ambiguous so that the campaign and the information about the cosmology can grow and evolve with my players and the PCs.
 

Or maybe I am not confusing them, and in my game ideas like this are left ambiguous so that the campaign and the information about the cosmology can grow and evolve with my players and the PCs.

And I like my information without more typos then a first grader's homework assignment, without errata taller then I am (And I'm pretty tall), and with rules and fluff that actually work in the context of the exact game they're supposed to be in.

Seriously, if you like ambiguity, that's awesome. I have nothing against that. But it's not done purposefully.
 

And I like my information without more typos then a first grader's homework assignment, without errata taller then I am (And I'm pretty tall), and with rules and fluff that actually work in the context of the exact game they're supposed to be in.

Seriously, if you like ambiguity, that's awesome. I have nothing against that. But it's not done purposefully.
Grammatical editing gaffes don't bother me that much, and if there are some mechanical errata, then yea it's a pain, but only until the errata comes out and then it's problem solved, no big deal anymore. Any kind of game of this magnitude is going to have some wanky stuff that needs a fix once it's run through the wringer by a million users and a whole lot of internet fans. Fine, that sucks that it isn't perfectly elegant in the first pass, but then some fixes will trickle in, and all will be well.

Some stuff is plain awesome because of the ideas behind it, and the whole of the 4e mechanics, for me, out weighs a few individual editing problems.

Look at the new 3PP Advanced Player's guide. The writer has admitted to accidentally leaving out one of two fairly pretty key elements, and there some other editing problems, but its a really great book, none-the-less.

I just find that I like 4e for everything else, a lot more than I dislike the things you mentioned. And this Grazzt article is a good example of that.
 

Well, the seed/shard/whatsis of evil apparently:
Drove a *god* insane
Turned a big chunk of the Elemental Chaos into the Abyss
Turned a great many Elementals into Demons

I'd say, sure: Stay in the Abyss too long, and the Abyss stays in you!

This also leads to a bad thought: were any of the bound Primordials sucked into the abyss? And what exactly did they turn in to?
 

Maybe this is one of the ambiguities of the new cosmology that allows DMs to decide for themselves.

The simpler explanation, in my mind, would be that they statted Grazzie up for beating before they bothered to give him a shiny new backstory. Because flavor doesn't really require mechanical rhyme or reason in 4e, and origin is nearly meaningless, you could switch him to immortal if you wanted to use that angle, but he's not given it by default because "Demons are Elementals, Devils are Immortals."

Thought process?

Graz'zt is a demon prince -> Graz'zt is Elemental; then We Need Backstory -> Graz'zt is a double agent from Hell maybe? Separate processes. Separate conclusions. Not really exclusive or incompatible, but never really explained. The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Wrought iron fence made of tigers.

His backstory is fine. I think it was...er...richer before, but I really wouldn't expect 4e to spend much time on telling you what plots might be cool. That really isn't its style. I wouldn't expect a whole lot more backstory than we're given here. I mean, we were told to wait for some in the MM when it came and then...there wasn't...so I don't think there's a good reason to expect it here.

But what they give him works for what they expect him to be used for. He'll be an epic-level big bad you beat up and take his points, everything else is up to you.
 


Thinking more about this, I really don't think it's a big deal. 4e has already decided on an absolutist position regarding demons and devils. If it looks human in any way and wants to corrupt you, it's a devil. If it wants to eat you and rape your eyes, it's a demon.

If the succubus is not going to survive as a demon, neither is Graz'zt.

So, having gotten over that particular gnashing of teeth months ago, I fail to see this change as really that big of a deal at all.

Gary Gygax provided a charming demonic origin for Graz'zt in his Gord the Rogue series, tying him to an interesting race of demons called the Abat-Dolor who had their own realm and intriguing role in the politics of the Abyss. As a rule, these demons had black skin, six fingers on each hand, and a sort of, well, diabolical approach to scheming and corrupting.

But the latter Gord the Rogue books are not the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, as they were written after Gary departed TSR. As neat as this story is, TSR/Wizards can't really use it.

Instead, Graz'zt's origins have largely remained unknown prior to his fateful meeting with the demonologist Iggwilv and his imprisonment in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.

Since the 4th edition version presents him as a _former_ devil who is currently a demon, they're essentially presenting him exactly as he first appeared in the Gary Gygax AD&D module "The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth," which was his first appearance in print.

Here's a summary of things about Graz'zt that have been changed in 4e:

1. Prior to him appearing in the "story" of D&D, he turned into a demon after being a devil.

That's pretty much it. Here, on the other hand, are elements of Graz'zt's backstory _not_ invalidated by the new version:

1. That he was a demon lord captured by the demonologist Iggwilv.
2. That he is the father of the demon-god Iuz the Evil, the primary villain of the World of Greyhawk campaign setting.
3. That he had subsequent dealings with the likes of Iggwilv and Zagig Yragerne, the archwizard of Castle Greyhawk.
4. That his lair spans three layers of the Abyss, which he personally conquered.

I'm not a fan of all of the demon/devil shuffling that's been going on in 4e. Not by a longshot.

But this doesn't really seem to ruin any of the main mythic points that "make Graz'zt Graz'zt," so I have a hard time getting worked up about this.

Frankly, given that they didn't just make Graz'zt a devil, I think it shows they're being more careful than it sometimes seems with some of the really important chess pieces of the Dungeons & Dragons IP than people here give them credit for.

The proof will be in future use of Graz'zt. Will they go out of their way change it so there is "no such thing" as Iggwilv (doubtful given the picture accompanying the article) or Iuz (still up in the air) and the like? Will they simply ignore elements that they don't like so as not to upset folks who like the old stuff? Will they witlessly blunder their way to a kewler story that accidentally undoes something people have cared about for years? We'll see, but I think there's evidence here that they're being careful with Graz'zt while still fitting him within the new, more rigid definition of demons and devils. This makes me more confident in how the Abyss and related matters will be handled in the future.

As a Grognard Prince I miss my paraelemental planes, my chaotic evil succubi, and my Deep Ethereal, but there aren't really any stories I wanted to tell about Graz'zt in my campaigns that this new take invalidates.

--Erik Mona
 
Last edited:

Erik Mona said:
I'm not a fan of all of the demon/devil shuffling that's been going on in 4e. Not by a longshot.

But this doesn't really seem to ruin any of the main mythic points that "make Graz'zt Graz'zt," so I have a hard time getting worked up about this.

Frankly, given that they didn't just make Graz'zt a devil, I think it shows they're being more careful than it sometimes seems with some of the really important chess pieces of the Dungeons & Dragons IP than people here give them credit for.

I'm 100% in agreement. Keen observation. :)

Erik Mona said:
I think there's evidence here that they're being careful with Graz'zt while still fitting him within the new, more rigid definition of demons and devils. This makes me more confident in how the Abyss and related matters will be handled in the future.

Maybe...just maybe...they have listened to some of the louder complaints. They can't go back and change anything they've done, but they can be more careful in the future.

Here's hopin'.
 

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top