Ampersand: Sneak Attack

Primal said:
I may be the only one on this forum, but I see static HPs being rather boring... no variance (except between the number added by your Con score, which would amount to 5-10 HPs in most cases anyway) in HPs between PCs or monsters of equal level and class/role.

One other factor in more predictable hitpoints is that it also ensures that you can ensure you actually get to play the character you want to.

For example, what if you and another player wanted to play a pair of brothers who were fighters - one wanted to be the tough, physical one while the other wanted to play the skinny one, focused on protecting his own fragile hide.

Tough Guy
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 8

Taking Power Attack and similar feats

Skinny guy
STR 12
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 12

Taking the Expertise chain.

What if Skinny Guy gets 10s on his hit dice and Tough Guy gets 1s?

By level 5 Tough guy only has 29hp while Skinny Guy has 60.

Extreme case, but now neither of them are getting to play their desired characters. You could say that this is interesting character development and they should roleplay appropriately but it does mean that they have to dump their concepts. In many ways, getting your character concept killed is worse than getting the actual character killed.

Getting your character concept killed by errors that character made in play? Fine. Paladins have been falling since forever because of this. Get your character concept killed by a roll that is meant to improve your character? That there is no way to avoid? Rubbish.
 

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Fallen Seraph said:
Well it will probably be a pretty easy thing to houserule if you really want it.

6 HP per level = roll d6 per level

8 HP per level = roll d8 per level


6 HP / level = 2d6-1
8 HP / level = 2d8-1

Your method would just drastically reduce the number of HP per level, which would mess with encounter balance in a pretty serious way unless as DM you want to go through the unnecessary hassle of reworking HP on every creature.
 

Primal said:
Yet I think that a certain amount of randomness is what makes most games fun and exciting to play, because if I didn't want any unpredictability at all, I'd just play Chess, Go or Amber.
Of course there needs to be SOME randomness to add tension to the game. D&D is all about the moments like "Will this attack hit?" and "Can I do enough damage this round to kill the monster?"

However, randomness in rolls that are rolled once and then have a long term effect on a character is not a good idea because it extends the result of a good or bad roll over a long period of time.

For instance, if you roll really well for hitpoints or stats it makes the rolls the enemy makes against you less dramatic and have less tension. It doesn't matter if the enemy hits this round since you know that you have a couple more rounds to survive than the monster can possible beat you in. It negates the randomness of some rolls due to randomness of others.

If you fail a save or die roll it creates long term consequences. Failing a save or take -2 to hit for 3 rounds creates short term consequences and adds to the tension.
Primal said:
Why not just give all PCs, as the "protagonists" of the "story", +100 HP at 1st level? Would it make the game more fun? Or would you think that it'd better if attacks and damage were static, too? Or, even better, what if all PCs (as the protagonists) would get a +20 modifier to their static attacks and monsters/NPCs just +10? Again, would it make the game more fun from a player's perspective? If not for anything else, these suggestions *would* remove most of the randomness in combat, and more or less ensure that the PCs always win.
Some of those suggestions might be good depending on the rest of the math in the game as a whole. The idea is to create tension and uncertainty in each round of combat rather than randomness. You want controlled randomness so that the players feel they have a chance of losing but also have a greater chance to win based on their decisions.

Stacking the odds so far in the PCs favor that they never lose at all removes the tension, which is bad. Making the game so random that the PCs know their decisions don't matter, that the roll of the dice is the only thing that is important ALSO removes tension. You need to find a balance between the two.

I've seen characters get so powerful in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd edition that it removed all tension from the game. Mostly this involved getting too many pluses to hit and damage, too many hitpoints or ac, or too high stats(which normally caused one of the other two problems). Anything that slanted odds in their favor too much pretty much removed the randomness from 90% of die rolls.
Primal said:
Death is part of the game, in my opinion. Even TPKs. If it's all about fun and tactics and eliminating randomness and "unfair" elements, I fear we may see things I suggested above in 5E. Would do you think -- would it be a step forward or backward in game design?
Death is part of the game. However, I don't think a random TPK is much fun for almost anyone. At least no one I've met. I haven't encountered a situation where people were jumping for joy because they all get to roll up new characters, the DM has to come up with a story solution to why a whole new group of people are finishing the adventure started by the first one or start an entirely new campaign.

The death of one player when it happens on a rare basis can be fun(since it adds to the tension to know that death IS a possibility), the death of an entire group rarely is fun.
 

Lizard said:
So, if God kills a kitten every time someone says "The DM can fix it!", what does He do when someone says "That's not a bug! That's a FEATURE!"

Just to clarify, I wasn't interested in re-opening old debates, just in pointing out that 4e's defenders have killed as many kittens as 3e's defenders...
The difference between "even though it's broken, the DM can fix it," and "it's better that way," is that the former is the Oberoni fallacy and the latter is not.
 

Doug McCrae said:
It's a valid answer to the extreme subjectivism of many of the 4e hatorz. They seem to be saying, "This isn't what I want in a game, therefore it shouldn't be in D&D."

Which is ridiculous. What's in D&D should be based on market research. It should be the tyranny of the majority. House ruling is the best solution for the individual here.

But if a complaint about a rule is that it doesn't work for anyone, or for the majority, then house ruling isn't a valid solution.
Exactly. If the rule doesn't suit your style, but functions for those who like it, house rule it. If the rule breaks the game, so that nobody likes it, it's a problem with the game.
 

Dr. Awkward said:
Exactly. If the rule doesn't suit your style, but functions for those who like it, house rule it. If the rule breaks the game, so that nobody likes it, it's a problem with the game.

Yes. There is a fundamental difference between house ruling to customize a game to particular tastes and house ruling to fix an inability of the game to achieve its default gameplay goals.

It's kind of like the difference between taking your dog to the vet because the dog is sick, and taking your dog to the genetic engineer to give it a poison-tipped scorpion tail.
 

Dr. Awkward said:
The difference between "even though it's broken, the DM can fix it," and "it's better that way," is that the former is the Oberoni fallacy and the latter is not.

Ah. I see.

All complaints about 3e are valid.
All complaints about 4e are invalid.

That DOES make the arguing much simpler! Thank you, Dr. Awkward!
 

Professor Phobos said:
Yes. There is a fundamental difference between house ruling to customize a game to particular tastes and house ruling to fix an inability of the game to achieve its default gameplay goals.

It's kind of like the difference between taking your dog to the vet because the dog is sick, and taking your dog to the genetic engineer to give it a poison-tipped scorpion tail.

Uh...the latter is way, way, way, cooler?
 



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