Greg K said:
Hey heretic,
Are you coming over from the WOTC boards?
Hi Greg,
Yep.
Greg K said:
Anyway, I don't see a problem. In my opinion, it should be riskier and more difficult to pull off maneuvers against those that are your equal or greater in combat ability.
If an opponent has equal or greater combat ability to you (attack bonus, AC, hit points, etc) , then using encounter or daily powers against him is *also* "riskier" and "more difficult to pull off". As such, this particular point can claim no greater sense of verisimilitude for BoIM than it can for 4E.
Greg K said:
Against such opponent's, you should be doing so only out of desperation, to try an catch them off guard (think of a MMA fighter opening the round with a Muay Thai flying knee strike. It rarely works, but when it does it rocks the opponent or takes them out of the fight), or if you can get the opponent in an unfavorable position that you can take advantage. Therefore, you need to be wise when you use a big maneuver.
No offense, but I can narrate all that without implementing a complicated sub-system that encourages system mastery reward and tactical monotony.
Seriously, these are exactly the kind of narrative devices I was using to explain how encounter and daily martial powers might "work" in my last two or three posts. The only difference is I believe it *takes away* from the fun and spontaneity of the game to transform all these narrations into a set of numbers, rules, and unnecessary crunch.
Greg K said:
a) set up the attack with a bluff or some maneuver. It might be difficult, but use action points to help you out.
b) wait until creature does something that gives them an AC penalty
c) if there is a condition track with penalties, wait until the creature is suffering penalties
d) use another maneuver that can inflict a condition and take advantage of it
e) have someone else can inflict a condition, take advantage
and spend action points to increase you chance of success with the attack
Honestly, it sounds to me that what you are describing means a player has to invoke system mastery reward just to make use of these mechanics. If you don't know the combat system inside and out, you basically can't use these maneuvers against thematically relevant enemies (i.e., other badass martial dudes).
Such a design is extremely unfriendly to beginners and casual players.
Greg K said:
Again makes sense to me. When you outclass your opponents, you can take advantage of their relative or complete lack of skill.
You can do that with encounter and daily powers, too, and you don't need complicated mechanics and tactical monotony to do it, either.
Greg K said:
I think whether or not a maneuver gets used it depends on the encounter. If the character is in a circumstance against a tough opponent and exchanging the whittling down of hps are unfavorable (e.g., a character getting low on hit points and/or having comrades falling in combat) may try a more desperate maneuver and spend action points to improve the attack.
Once again, encounter and daily powers can accomplish this just as well, but don't have the negatives that this system has to overcome to use.
Also, while it is true that there may be certain opponents that just this particular maneuver will totally kick ass against, in general characters will still be firing off their strongest moves as often as they possibly can. There is still monotony, it just isn't absolute.
Greg K said:
Otherwise, they are going to need to rely on teamwork to make pulling off maneuvers practical.
More system mastery reward. Not only do I have to know the combat system inside and out, but everyone in my party does, too. Ewwwww.
Also, I think fans of martial power source characters might be a little annoyed that they have to rely on others to use any of their better abilities, whereas the arcane and divine guys need not do anything other than point and shoot.
Greg K said:
Definitely different strokes. I don't see it or the math as needlessly complicated. As for b) I see the need for players to used maneuvers when appropriate circumstances present themselves or the need for players to use teamwork and/or creativity to create appropriate circumstances to try a maneuver.
Okay, look. We basically have two competing martial systems here.
On the one hand, we have the 4E power model which provides characters with a set of once-per-encounter and once-per-day abilities whose requirements and conditions to use can be narrated by players as they see fit, allowing for alternative interpretations and unique narratives that no one here has taken into account yet. Expenditure of action points and/or feats *may* allow characters in this system to use these abilities more often, if needed.
On the other hand, we have the BoIM maneuver model which provides a set of abilities with very specific mechanical conditions that dictates when they can and cannot be used (and therefore rules out unique narrative explanations for such abilities). Unfortunate features of this model include system mastery reward, the slowing down and complicating of combat by imposing additional arithmetic, encouraging tactical monotony, restricting narrative possibilities, and general-use inefficacy of the abilities against other martial characters.
Now, if *I* were designing a new edition of D&D, why would I *ever* choose the latter model over the former model?? I mean, seriously??
Laterz.
