An alternative spell duration mechanic (saving throws vs defence)

[Zustiur]

I certainly found all the tracking of things to be a pain! Every round it seemed that some new spell was taking effect, or ending, or there was a condition to apply or remove. It seemed that for everything they simplified, they rewarded themselves by adding a new layer of complexity in its place.

I think that is one of the ways that 4E shoots itself in the foot. The effects are simple to understand and keep track of, but they chop and change way too frequently. This is one of the reasons why I'm pushing for longer spell duration. I want a spell to have a more meaningful effect than 'x for 1 round'. My mechanic is an attempt at merging 3E duration length with 4E's attack/defence/save structure. This is also why (in other threads) I generally push for less effect creating powers to be available at any given time. i.e. 'mundane' fighters and Vancian wizards.

You only have to track a single number if there's only one spell (possible spell-caster). Multiples mean multiple numbers to track.

This is true of any system. Even 4E once you get into situations where someone can alter the save chance. Not to mention this eternal problem:
"Ok, that ends my turn, so I'll roll my save. I rolled a 10, so I saved."
"Which effect were you rolling for?"
"Umm..."

At the moment (4E) we write down things like:
"Dazed, save ends" and "Stunned until the beginning of the source's next turn" and "-2 to the next attack roll".
All other things being equal, I'd expect that to become:
"Dazed DC17" and "Stunned 1 round" and "-2 to attacks, 1 round".
The less you have to note down, the better.


If I was simply 'patching' 4E to make it simpler and more satisfying, I think my first target would be the miniscule difference between, "Until the beginning of your next turn" and, "Until the end of your next turn". Both are unweildy sentences, and the difference comes down to "Do I personally benefit from the effect?"
If the focus is supposed to be on teamwork, the answer to that question should always be, "no". Therefore all single round effects should be, "until the beginning of your next turn". This could then be explained once in the rules and listed in powers simply as, "Until your next turn" or better yet, "for one round".

Additionally, you only skip the bulk of 4e tracking if you also get rid of all the variations on spell duration... which is fine, but which works just as well with 4e if you switch everything to "save ends".

That is a concern which I don't have an answer for at present. Part of me says, "of course there must be effects that last only one round", but another part of my says, "such as?"
Once I've identified a spell or effect that should only last one round, I'll re-think this, but for now I'm assuming that single round effects will disappear.

If the single-round durations are too short, a simple solution would be to increase the threshold on saves - '15' or '18' would seem good values, depending on how forgiving you want the system to be.

That is certainly an option. Not one I personally find pleasing though. I do want that effect of, "I rolled really well on my attack, and that means something."

Combined with the above thoughts; my notation would become:
"Dazed DC17" and "Stunned DC13" and "-2 to attacks DC16".
Actually, knowing me and abbreviations, it would become:
"Daze 17" and "Stun 13" and "-2 att 16".

If I can get rid of "EOYNT" and "BOYNT", I'll see that as an improvement.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I dislike the End of Next Turn/Start of Next Turn distinction as well. But I am not sure i'd default to Start of Next Turn, since that means some of the striker type "self-buffs" would no longer work. maybe it's not that terrible if the Warlord and Clerics can also help their own attacks?

One of the effects I found most interesting in D&D 4 was those that didn'T even require a hit. Like "Offering of Justice" or what it was called, an Invoker power that deals damage if the enemy makes an attack and heals him when he doesn't. No attack roll, just a choice.

I wouldn't mind if magic would actually not always allow a save against the initial effect. That could be one of the perks of powerful magic. To kill someone with a sword, you have to hit him, but magic is different - you suffer the effect and can only hope to break free. As long as the "Hope" is actually reasonable, and the effects are rare enough, it could work. It doesn't work for everything, but for some effects it's interesting.
To some extent, this type of effects existed even before 4E - illusions typically require no save, until you interact with them and have a reason to doubt.

 

[the Jester]

Too much tracking.

 

[Zustiur]

Too much tracking.

As compared with what though? All spell duration systems require tracking. I can see that forgetting to write down the DC would be a problem, but is it that bad?