An alternative to Fixed Racial Ability Scores Modifiers for Non-humans?

[Bera]

Isn't this kind of how 13th age does it? If I'm recalling correctly you get a +2 to an ability from your race which might be something like constitution or wisdom for a dwarf and then another +2 from your class say intelligence or wisdom for a wizard. The restriction being that you can't apply both bonuses to the same ability so the aforementioned dwarf wizard could add +2 wisdom for being a dwarf and then would have to take the +2 intelligence for his wizard class.

Basically. More interesting, the 13th Age in Glorantha playtest has rules for trolls, where Str and Con need to be two of your highest ability scores. It doesn't preclude you from doing something crazy like making a troll wizard, but it does ensure troll wizards are still kinda strong and tough.

 

[Vicaring]

I think a major problem is imbedded in how the classes are constructed in the first place. Classes tend to derive all their bonuses to the abilities they are expected to use most often from only one or two ability score. Some classes are much worse about this than other classes, but pretty much universally your choice of class leaves you in the situation of asking "why and when would I even ever use that attribute?" and usually that attribute is Intelligence with Strength and Charisma coming up behind. (I mean, really, you want one person in the group to have good charisma, everyone else can be totally lame creeps. But you are fine running a group where not one has an Intelligence or Strength above 8.)
...
Basically it would require a major overhaul to the way class mechanics are done in order to really expand the sort of attribute builds that could pick up those class abilities and still be almost just as effective as the classic builds.

I like where you're going with this, and I entirely agree, although I think a band-aid fix isn't as difficult as you make out.

What I have done in my campaign is this:
1) Dexterity is the To-Hit modifier, always.
2) Strength is the Damage modifier, in every case except when it comes to mechanical/chemical weapons, such as crossbows or firearms: these weapons get NO damage modifier.
3) Constitution is self-evident as being important
4) Intelligence is the magical equivalent of Dexterity. Any time a spell calls for a "spell attack", you use your Intelligence modifier
5) Wisdom is the magical equivalent of Strength. Any time a spell calls for your spellcasting modifier to modify damage, it's your wisdom. Also, spells that require a save are also based on this.
6) Charisma should also be self-evident, but it typically isn't. This is the fault of the DM, however. There should be repercussions for piss-poor charismas. Also, anybody ever attempts a Charisma anything with the freakshow standing behind him is getting a big negative. Also, for the love of God, DM, use your NPCs and Hirelings. Show the players, somehow, that they really are failing to utilize all available resources.

What this does is broaden the attributes a little bit, at least.

I am also intrigued by race-as-class. I had previously dismissed it, but this article at B/X Blackrazor has got me thinking.

 

[delericho]

I still look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Sadly, I think my days of amateur game design are behind me - I don't have the time, and I found that getting from "a handful of cool concepts" to "something I can actually play" is really hard.

Honestly, trying to write rules around min-maxing powergamers is an exercise in futility.

To steal a factoid I saw somewhere else (which, ironically, was about shoplifting): 10% of players will always try to power-game, no matter the system. 10% of players will never power-game, because they have no interest in it.

But the other 80% of players will power-game if the perceived rewards are big enough for the effort required. They're the ones it's worth thinking about and tailoring your game for - if you make the reward for playing to type (or, conversely, the penalty for going against type) too great, you'll basically never see the oddball combination (the Halfling Barbarian, or whatever). Conversely, if the rewards are only very small you'll see a tendency towards 'standard' characters but also a reasonable number of 'oddballs'.

(In case it's not clear, the numbers aren't in any way accurate. But the concept is sound - some few will always power-game, some few will never power-game, but the majority will do so conditionally. Design towards the third group.)

 

[Afrodyte]

I'm clearly the 10% who don't powergame since I've played a D&D game with a wood elf paladin flower child who is basically Fluttershy.

I don't think there's a way to design around convincing players to play suboptimal or oddball race/class combos. A certain degree of mechanical synergy is, I think, a feature and not a bug in D&D. The people who want to try an interesting race/class combo are the people who are not doing it for the mechanical benefits but because it fits a concept or is interesting to play.

There's also the option to randomly choose race and class, but that takes away players making choices about what kind of character they want to play. Another option is making everyone the same race and telling the players that no two characters can have the same class. You're not going to see a lot of dwarf fighters and halfling rogues if the PCs are all high elves.

Otherwise, I think the best way to get more less standard race/class combos is to tell your players that you want to see that.

 

[delericho]

A certain degree of mechanical synergy is, I think, a feature and not a bug in D&D.

Of course. It's not about whether it should exist but rather how much.

There's also the option to randomly choose race and class, but that takes away players making choices about what kind of character they want to play.

Otherwise, I think the best way to get more less standard race/class combos is to tell your players that you want to see that.

Again, it's not that I want to restrict player choices, or that I particularly want to see more oddball characters. I have no problem with players playing the character they want - whether that's the Dwarf Fighter or the Half-orc Sorcerer.

The sole issue I have is that I've found the ability mods are too strong a push towards particular character types. Which manifests itself as players choosing their race not because they have any interest in playing that race but purely because of the ability score modifiers.

All of which is, of course, IMO only. And YMMV.

(It's also true that things are better now than they were. But consider for the moment the case in 3e where certain races had penalties to some stats as well as bonuses, and where a high stat was even more important to casters than it is today. In that case, the player who wanted to play that Half-orc Sorcerer might well have looked at his preferred concept, looked at the -2 Cha penalty he'd be suffering as a consequence, and decided it just wasn't worth it. And so we get yet another Half-elf Sorcerer. And we have one less oddball character and, more importantly, we have a player who isn't really happy with his character (but would have been even more unhappy had he gone the other way).)

 

[Psikerlord#]

Premise (long-ish...): Recently I went for an AL game, didn't know anyone at the table in advance. We were three halfling rogues, and two high elves wizards... I confess, I was one of the high elves.

I've been playing 5E since it came out, and before that I played all editions of the game. With time, I've grown to dislike fixed racial ability scores modifiers. Somehow, when I DM or play, somewhere there's always a halfling rogue, or a high elf wizard, or a wood elf ranger, or a half-orc barbarian.

Sure, I could blame it on min-maxing, but somehow I don't think it's "wrong" to go for the race that is more advantageous for your class. Especially among new players, I've noticed that they first choose their class, and then when they have to choose their race, they ask me "ok, which one gives me a bonus to X?" with X being the Ability Score most need for their class. I guess it's only natural to want to be good at what you've set yourself to do.

It's just that, unless you have a lot of different races in your campaign, there's always going to be that one race that does the job better. Plus humans...

TL/DR: I was thinking of getting rid of fixed racial ability scores modifiers, and I was looking for some suggestions.

A few options I was toying with:
1) Ability Scores Modifier are not fixed. A +2 Con / +1 Wis becomes +2 X / +1 Y.
2) Ability Scores Mods are not tied to race, but to class. Thinking of linking this to the two Ability Score where you have Saving Throw proficiency. So for example, being a Wizard will give you Int +2, Wis +1.
3) No more Ability Scores mods, but more points for starting ability scores. Instead of 8,10,12,13,14,15, would be 8,10,12,13,15,17.

Let's discuss!

I like your idea, but think it can be even simpler.

We allow racial stat modifiers to be put on any stat. Works good! No issues so far. Instead of picking race for stat bonus, players pick race for everything else.

 

[dmnqwk]

Well you know, the Race is less important with regards to role-playing that most people think.

Your best bet, if you want to encourage a more diverse selection because you feel it's important to see Dwarven Rogues in the world, is to give players a choice:

Either they choose their class and then randomly assign their stats of 15/14/13/12/10/8; or they assign their stats and randomly choose their race.

Another option is to simply remove all modifiers and allow players to add +3 anywhere, no stat over 16. (To make up the difference allow Humans a Feat, Half Elves perception and Mountain Dwarves can have survival)

The final option to consider, is to allow a player to switch 2 scores after creation, so a Str 17 Con 17 mountain dwarf with a 12 Int could switch Str and Int and be an awesome Wizard!

 

[Juuxo160]

My house rule would be to replace the +2 ability score increase you gain from a race (no changes to the subraces) with a +1 ability score increase and an ability score of your choice is increased by 1. Starting with a 16 in your primary ability score has almost no effect on character progression.