An attempt to make the Mystic Theurge have a point

[Arc]

The variant core class version you present seems balanced, but if a character simply always choses arcane (or divine) they're effectively a core class with a few extra levels tossed in for fun. The low skill points are a hindrence, but compared to a straight up wizard, this class has a fairly large advantage (healing spells). Not necessarily a problem, but it makes straight wizard a choice that won't be chosen nearly as often (especially when MT gains bonus feats)

 

[Angcuru]

The variant core class version you present seems balanced, but if a character simply always choses arcane (or divine) they're effectively a core class with a few extra levels tossed in for fun. The low skill points are a hindrence, but compared to a straight up wizard, this class has a fairly large advantage (healing spells). Not necessarily a problem, but it makes straight wizard a choice that won't be chosen nearly as often (especially when MT gains bonus feats)

True, true. Perhaps I should add a clause wherin a character cannot have more than a 2 to 1 ratio of arcane to divine and vice versa, so you could have even amounts to 2:1, but you can't go past that to something like, say... 3:1. OR I could assume that any DM that uses this will smite any player who abuses the possiblity for munchkinosity. SMITE, I say. With a +5 Merciful Warhammer of Pain and General Unpleasantness.

 

[blackshirt5]

If I weren't switching to the AU casting classes, I'd use Angcuru's Mystic Theurge to replace the wizard and the cleric in my game. IF I ever convert Elric of Melnibone to the D20 System, I'll probably use it for the Mage-Priests.

 

[Al]

Angcuru- I may be being stupid, but I don't see why the MTv is not a no-brainer to pick over the wizard.

They get everything a wizard does, even the familiar and bonus feats, in addition to full spellcasting progression. In addition to that, they also get simple weapon proficiency, full undead turning capabilities, five levels of clerical spellcasting, and two domain powers. It just seems that they aren't sacrificing anything at all compared to a normal wizard.

Perhaps you could keep the class but strip away all of the 'added extras'. Take simple weapon proficiency back down to wizard proficiencies; remove familiar progression; take out undead turning; lose the bonus feats. Even then, with five clerical spell levels and domain powers, it's a class highly competitive with a straight wizard: just not patently more powerful.

 

[Angcuru]

Angcuru- I may be being stupid, but I don't see why the MTv is not a no-brainer to pick over the wizard.

They get everything a wizard does, even the familiar and bonus feats, in addition to full spellcasting progression. In addition to that, they also get simple weapon proficiency, full undead turning capabilities, five levels of clerical spellcasting, and two domain powers. It just seems that they aren't sacrificing anything at all compared to a normal wizard.

Apparently you did not read my last post. I implemented at rule wherein "A (MTv) cannot have more than a 2 to 1 ratio of arcane to divine / divine to arcane advancement. I.E. 6 in arcane and 3 in divine is possible, but 8 in arcane in 3 in divine is not." So you would still want to take wizard if you want all-out arcane. With this change, you can't do that, and the problem you suggest is no longer.

 

[Al]

Ah, okay. That's fine then- sorry about that.

 

[DreamChaser]

I still think they have too much and don't give up enough. If there were going to be no wizard or cleric in a world, then this MTv would make sense. In a world with both, it still seems like a no brainer, except for people who despise multiclass spellcasters anyway (which this essentially is, no matter what name it gets) who would never take it because they would never gain their vaunted 9th level spells.

Quick questions for clarity:

What is your MTv's caster level? Is it MT level or do they have to keep track of them seperately? This is critical for balance. Most direct damage spells and anything that needs to overcome spell resistance will be affected by this.

DC

 

[Angcuru]

No problem, Al.

 

[Angcuru]

I still think they have too much and don't give up enough. If there were going to be no wizard or cleric in a world, then this MTv would make sense. In a world with both, it still seems like a no brainer, except for people who despise multiclass spellcasters anyway (which this essentially is, no matter what name it gets) who would never take it because they would never gain their vaunted 9th level spells.

Quick questions for clarity:

What is your MTv's caster level? Is it MT level or do they have to keep track of them seperately? This is critical for balance. Most direct damage spells and anything that needs to overcome spell resistance will be affected by this.

DC

Well, that's a matter of opinion. If you think it's unbalanced, change it to suit your needs or just don't use it in the first place.

The MTv's caster level is his MTv level for both arcane and divine, due to the fact that as they advance they constantly study arcane and divine magic equally, but increase their power in either according to their preferences.

I forgot to include in the text that:

The drawback to this is that any multiclassing into something like loremaster, archmage, or any given divine or arcane casting prestige class does not add to their caster level. They use their MTv level for all casting, unless their prestige class caster level is higher. For example, if you had MTv 5 and Loremaster 3, you would have a caster level of 5 in arcane and divine spells; but if you had MTv 6 and Loremaster 9, you would have caster level 9 in arcane spells and 6 in divine spells.

Also, if a MTv multiclasses to a non-arcane or divine spellcasting class, they break the constant study of magic that defines them and cannot take another level in MTv. I.E. if a 7th level MTv multi-classed to druid, fighter, paladin, ranger, ANYthing that does not have arcane or divine magic, or even the sorcerer, which embodies the manipulation of in-born powers, not a study of magic, they cannot re-start their studies of Mystic Theurgy/cannot take another level.

IN any case, that is the point of the MTv, their spells are quite effective, but they have fewer of them than a pure divine or arcane caster of equal level. Their spells may pack equal punch, but they have a smaller inventory of spells and are therefore at a disadvantage. An MTv sacrifices raw power in one sect of magic to have the versatility to be able to cast both types of magic with equal effectiveness, but with less powerful effects less often.

I'll post an updated version of the file when I get to my computer at home, then you can look it over and add more feedback.

 

[Angcuru]

Here it is, revised/updated.