An End to the Classes System?

[Felon]

Absolutely. True20's "generic classes" take honestly seems like an ideal compromise between the flexibility of a purely point-based system, and the convenient and logical bundling of associated properties that a class-based system provides (i.e., the character with a lot of combat abilities also has a high BAB, etc.). There are definitely changes I would make to it, and I feel it's really hurting from simply not having enough feats, but it's a great, great innovation in the whole d20-derived breed of systems. I strongly hope that D&D 4E looks a lot like it.

True 20 has great potential, but as you point out it suffers from lack of content. We've got a Star Wars campaign where everyone has Two-Weapon Fighting simply because it seems to be the fighting style that's actually supported by having lots of feats.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I don't want an END to classes - but I don't mind seeing reinterpretions of the four core classes and what their default abilities might be. In that respect I think D&D still clings to some notions of what the 4 core classes are and could/should be in the name of tradition that could do with some official tweaking.

 

[Crothian]

A question about Buy the Numbers, if I may.

Does it allow for characters who level up in classes normally, but would like to buy some extra skill points or an additional class feature?

Of course you may. Basically, one could buy what they would get for taking a second level of fighter (for instance) and use extra XP to buy other things. However, not all classes or levels are equal under the system. To look at the fighter again at fith level he has no extra class abilities and no saves go up. So that level he is buying less and would have plenty of XP for other things. Were as a 5th level wizard has to buy the ability to cast third level spells.

 

[Larcen]

I posted a simple but untested classless system in the second half of this long winded post:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3295525&postcount=969

Is Buy the numbers rules lite like this? If not has anyone else experimented with a super simple classless system or seen any?

 

[Crothian]

No, Buy the Numbers plays exactly like D&D plays. All they changed was character advancement.

 

[JoeGKushner]

rogue with no sneak attack?

Unearthed Arcana: Swap Feats for Sneak Attack.

A bard without spellcasting?

Unearthed Arcana

A wizard without a familiar?

Unearthed Arcana

An unarmed fighter that isn't a monk?

The Art Of the Fight I think it's called. Core class with the Martial artists.

Core D&D makes those things somewhat difficult to pull off. A system like Grim Tales makes them a piece of cake to create and makes them effective at what they do.

And games like Hero and GURPS go even further. Complexity vs semi-simplicity. With all the options though, GURPS is no more complicated than d20.

 

[Master of the Game]

Of course you may. Basically, one could buy what they would get for taking a second level of fighter (for instance) and use extra XP to buy other things. However, not all classes or levels are equal under the system. To look at the fighter again at fith level he has no extra class abilities and no saves go up. So that level he is buying less and would have plenty of XP for other things. Were as a 5th level wizard has to buy the ability to cast third level spells.

Thanks. I'm not sure if it's exactly what I want, but it certainly looks worth a look.

 

[SiderisAnon]

What about adding feats and abilities from other WotC splatbooks? Is there a method to gauge how much they would cost to buy?

"Buy the Numbers" gives you point costs for all of the feats in the SRD. (Though I don't remember what version of the SRD and I don't have my copy handy.) From those examples, the DM would have to come up with a point value for any feats from splatbooks or third party material. Figuring out how much you'd have to pay for special abilities from splatbook classes would work basically the same, though the basic formulas for those is based on how much experience it would take to get such an ability.

A question about Buy the Numbers, if I may.

Does it allow for characters who level up in classes normally, but would like to buy some extra skill points or an additional class feature?

Theoretically, you could combine the two, since "Buy the Numbers" uses experience. However, I don't know how well this would balance. There are some things that cost more the more you already have, and those formulas would be thrown off by all the stuff you're getting in your normal class levels. I'd say it's possible, but it would require some work from the DM to balance everything out and make it work.


I really liked the idea of "Buy the Numbers". Unfortunately, my players did not, so I never got to playtest it. I cannot say for certain how balanced the overall system is. On read-through, it struck me as decently balanced.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I don't know about this. However, one thing that I have no doubt about is that levels are reflective of character ability. It's certainly possible to create a useless 12th level character or an amazing 3rd level character, but the vast majority of characters at level X will be able to deal with roughly the same level of challenge. Your 12th level fighter may be a little bit weak, but unless you intentionally screwed him up or fell for some kind of power-gamer trap (if I take one level of wizard, I can cast shield, if I take one level of cleric, I can cast cure spells and get a re-roll. If I take on level of druid, I'll be faster; oops, now I'm 6th level with a +3 base attack bonus and a bunch of equally useless spells--darn), he'll be able to hang with the other 12th level characters. Your 7th level wizard may be a little strong for his level, but except for a few exploits, nobody is going to mistake you for a 9th level wizard.

Classes play a big part in this by establishing a set progression of combat abilities that you get whether you like it or not as long as you don't multiclass.

This enables a module writer to know roughly what kinds of characters a module is appropriate for and write it down in an easy succinct sentence--"designed for a party of 6th level characters." It also enables a DM to quickly gauge the level of his party "Level 4+level 5+level 5+level 3=average level 4.25" and compare what they are capable of to what a published module might require. If I were to try this with a true point based system that didn't include the automatic upgrade paths that D&D classes do, the easiest method would require the DM to keep track of how many points he had given out (I think I've seen champions games advertise "600 point characters" and such), but to get the same degree of very approximate accuracy, I would probably need to create a separate chart based on character abilities (a Delta class hero can reliably hit AC X; average save Y; Z hit points) to approximate level and calculate what class the PCs are in.

So, how did non-level based games successfully publish modules? The impression that I get from my shadowrun experience and what I've seen written is that they tend to have a much less dynamic power curve. You can gain power, but my impression is that the same system does not generally support the grim mercenary company struggling to survive in a gritty campaign against the orcish hordes and the paragons of martial virtue who ride to slay the great wyrm of the north. In D&D, you could start as the first level mercenary and become the dragonslayer--in fact, that is the normal progression. My impression is that your power level is far more static in non-level based gaming systems (perhaps because the more flexible a character creation system is the more it is generally possible to power game it).

2. Back in college a friend told me levels were more reflective of actual ability. I'm not sure all will agree, but I do see how practice can go from uneffective to degrees of effectiveness. For example, a gymnast learns certain tricks until they become competent to perform them in competition. Further proficiency in more difficult tricks shows greater ability. Partial learning does not count as a partial flip dismount still results in landing prone. Only true proficiency can be trusted (a new level).