An 'Epic Levels' (or close to them) rant

[Storyteller01]

I come from the 'role play/storytelling' school of thought, so you number crunchers probably won't be too worried about his...

Has anyone else noticed a mass amount of epic or near epic characters? Yes, I know.. player characters ARE supposed to be epic. But I've looked at published material, as well as DM written adventures.

Now YMMV, but the pattern I've noticed is that Kings are usual in their high teens. Church leaders tend to be near epic level followers capable of a resurrection very week or so. Same can be said for just about every class: everyone of importance socially is usually very high in level. Now, I haven't read the Eborron setting, so I can't say the same for it (YET! )

I'm not ranting about D&D mechanics so much as player perception. Why do important figures have to be epic or nearly so?

I'm not looking for a flame war, so PLEASE be civil. I've simply noticed a trend and would like some feedback. Thanks again folks.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Because it's still the time of the sword in many of these fantasy settings and the reality is that if you'reu nable to hold your own in a fight, that in a high fantasy setting, you're one step away from being replaced by a shape changing dragon, doppelganger or other identity theft.

 

[Storyteller01]

Because it's still the time of the sword in many of these fantasy settings and the reality is that if you'reu nable to hold your own in a fight, that in a high fantasy setting, you're one step away from being replaced by a shape changing dragon, doppelganger or other identity theft.

Not a barb...

Guess that's just my mind set then. I always thought (and have played, so my milage varies quite a bit) that be a noble or possessing a higher rank generally meant less fighting. Not much of a need to, unless honor dictates you lead from the front (not always true though).

ANymore thoughts

 

[Psion]

Can you be more specific as to which products you speak of? The default demographics rules makes teen-leveled characters sort of rare. And I myself have found the pickings for high level play somewhat slim, a trend that is only recently is being addressed.

 

[S'mon]

IMC the powerful rulers tend to be high level for the reason JoeG gave, but they are rarely the highest level in the Kingdom; eg King Hansor of Thrinia is 16th level but he can call upon 21st level allies & retainers, Overking Tarkane is 16th but he has 17th-19th liegemen likewise. The powerful ruler tends to have certain qualities like wisdom & ambition as well as being a tough-ass. Taking a historical example, King Edward I would be a high level Fighter in a D&D world but not the highest level in the whole of England - with Point Buy he wouldn't have the best physical/combat stats either because he'd have points in INT WIS & CHA. IMC usually there's a King's Champion who is at or close to being the best fighter in the realm, better than the King himself, but the King although surrounded by guards on the battlefield can still lay the smackdown if necessary.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

But if you accept the premise that XP is gained not necessarily through combat but through overcoming obstacles, it's not unreasonable to think that a ruler of a kingdom is a high-level character. That's why your 15th level fighter is still only 20 years old, and the King (fighter 5, noble 10) is 40. He's just earning XP at a much slower rate.

Adding an XP cost to high-level healing magic is the best rationale I can think of for why everyone doesn't get raised from the dead. High-level non-adventuring clerics will earn XP at a much lower rate, and since you can't lose a level burning XP for a spell, most of them probably hit a point where they can't advance. If they spend the XP, they are constantly ping-ponging back and forth, never earning enough to make the next level. And if they aren't raising the dead and such, they aren't seen as powerful members of the church, doing their god's will, etc. and aren't earning XP for doing great things.

 

[Yair]

A high Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff and possibly other skill scores are necessary for a strong leader. Otherwise, he would be easily won over by silver-tongued advisors. High level also aids to resist poison or malign spells, and set a personal example when needed (such as leading your men into battle), but this I consider to be of secondary importance.

A high-level bard with a good Perform (Oratory) is the ideal D&D politician or demaguege. The need to face and overcome such obstacles leads to the need for high level leaders.

I generally set the level of most experienced adults at about 6, nobles included. Nobles (or other characters) involved in intrigue or all-out warfare, however, can get to significantly higher levels (to infinity, but usually in the early teens). I also increase the levels of long-lived races, especially elves, and of those devoted to self-improvement (wizards studying for decades, monks in their monasteries, and so on).
Regardless of the leader's levels, the levels of his aids and advisors is often high - it is based largely on who he can afford to hire and the size of his power base, and leaders tend to have high income and lots of subjects.

 

[S'mon]

I generally use 10th as the base level for competent monarchs; more if exceptional (the Kha-Khan of the Mongali Empire is 21st), lower if inexperienced or incompetent. For minor nobles ca 4th-6th is good, maybe 9th if they're a "Marcher Lord" defending the frontier.

 

[Henry]

Play Eberron.

Just kidding. Seriously, Eberron is (as well as Freeport) one of the settings I;ve seen that intentionally caps its top rulers at level 6 to 12, with the occasional high-level character, most of them evil. It ensures that the PCs are indeed the saviors of the day, and that resurrections are not a common thing.

 

[kitoy]

I see two pretty good reasons for leaders of nations to be high level.

1. Extraordinary people tend to gravitate to positions of power. This happens in literature, the movies and in real life. I don't know about you but King Conan, the Emperor from Star Wars and Genghis Khan would all be high teen to epic level characters in my campaign and in most other campaigns as well.

2. If you're planning for your campaign to go into epic levels, leaders of nations had better be high to epic level. Otherwise, they will quickly be overthrown by the epic level threats and/or NPCs you intend to use to challenge your players. Heck, if leaders of nations are relatively low level, what's to keep the PCs from conquering nations and eventually ruling the world?

In an epic/high level game, the answer is not high to epic level servants or advisors for relatively low level monarchs. Eventually, one of those epic level "servants" will either take over the nation or turn the monarch into a puppet.