An Examination of Differences between Editions

[Imaro]

Are you honestly trying to tell me that whipping out a 3.X half-orc barbarian (anywhere from 1st through 6th level) is as difficult as a calculus exam?

First slow down and read my post. No where do I say it's as hard as a calculus exam, in fact I state the opposite. But I also don't buy a five minute character either.

An epic level character? Sure. I fully agree. But not a low level character.

A rogue would take a little longer. A wizard or sorcerer with spells to choose, probably a half-hour.

Does it take them a half-hour to understand the game in a general sense? No, they'd probably have to run through a pick-up game for that, just like it would probably take me one or two games to get back into the swing of 1st Edition, or get the idea of C&C when I played it for the first time.

Okay so you don't think 15 to 30min per character for a four or five party group is longer than BD&D or AD&D. Whether you prefer it, isn't the question but there is added complexity and making a character under 3e does not take 5min.

Nobody is ever going to roll a die for the first time, and then get a glimmer in their eye, and look at you, and explain what just happened through divine insight. There is a learning curve for ANY game.

But yes, I think you are exaggerating the learning curve for 3rd Edition D&D.

So what is the learning curve for D&D? You seem to want to underestimate it, but in order for a player to understand all the rules in the game there is a big learning curve(you can argue he/she doesn't need to know every rule, but then that's true for simpler games as well so it evens out.), magnitudes larger than such games as C&C, BD&D, etc. If you feel that's not true tell me why?

Most of the DMs I know can scan down a Prestige Class and give you a general idea of whether it's balanced, cheesy, ubercheesy or just plain cherry-picking overpowered goodness in the time it takes to read it.

So yes, I'm saying that's a lot easier than designing game mechanics from scratch.

With how much familiarity and how accurate are they...it's a guessing game just like designing your own Prestige classes, or anything else without concrete deasign rues. For you it might be easier, for me going over someone elses design, and tweaking, fixing, adjusting is just as tiresome.

Okay, so I've got my own experiences, and you've got some Dragon magazine article in the interdeterminate past that you've read ... somewhere.

I think I'll go with my own experience.

If I were throwing together a new gaming group with all first-time players, we might make a day of it just for fun the first time around. Pizza and Mt. Dew and a pile of books, and sitting around talking about the game, and running a mock combat, and maybe watching Gamers while we ate lunch.

Does that mean that low-level character generation is as hard as a calculus exam? Hardly.

Where did I say it was as hard as a calculus exam?

Look, I'm not trying to talk you out of C&C. I'm probably going to buy the books later this year, myself. I've heard good things about the game. It sounds quality, and interesting.

But part of the reason I haven't made the transition is because D&D really isn't THAT hard to keep in check. C&C is simple, yes. And simplicity is a virtue. But it's not the ONLY virtue in a game, and right now the drawbacks of C&C don't make it appealing enough for me to switch.

That's cool different strokes for different folks but those who argue D&D 3.x is just as simple as BD&D or C&C...I just don't buy it.

 

[molonel]

I do think 3.X is more complex than, say 1e or C&C (in terms of character creation), but as I said a little upthread, I think that's a good thing. I said in several previous threads that I think WotC needs to make NPC creation a little faster, and I note that WotC has responded in current books to that request. Woot!

C&C I can't speak to. I've heard C&C is much easier, and I'm sure in some aspects of that game are easier. 1st Edition AD&D? I'd argue that. Some numbers go up, and that's a good thing. Other numbers go down, and that's a good thing. It's still a learning curve.

NPC or PC creation in high-level games is unnecessarily difficult. Don't even get me started on epic. Anything 1st through 10th, I could almost literally do in my sleep.

First slow down and read my post. No where do I say it's as hard as a calculus exam, in fact I state the opposite. But I also don't buy a five minute character either.

I know. Raven Crowking pointed that out. I violated my own "No posting before coffee" policy. I'm drinking my first cup, now, and remembering why I made that policy to begin with. You're free to completely disregard that post. I would delete it, but I prefer to let it hang there in all of its foolish glory.

Okay so you don't think 15 to 30min per character for a four or five party group is longer than BD&D or AD&D. Whether you prefer it, isn't the question but there is added complexity and making a character under 3e does not take 5min.

Sure. D&D character creation takes longer than five minutes, and if 5-minute character creation is a must-have for someone, I'd recommend they stay far away from D&D, far far away from anything by White Wolf, and far far far far far far far far away from GURPS.

So what is the learning curve for D&D? You seem to want to underestimate it, but in order for a player to understand all the rules in the game there is a big learning curve(you can argue he/she doesn't need to know every rule, but then that's true for simpler games as well so it evens out.), magnitudes larger than such games as C&C, BD&D, etc. If you feel that's not true tell me why?

In order for them to understand ALL the rules? I don't understand ALL the rules. That's part of the reason I come on message forums: to discuss the rules, and learn about them.

Learning how to play a game - any game - takes time. D&D has a learning curve, sure. But magnitudes larger? No, I don't buy that at all. I've taught people how to play in a single pick-up session, and you know what? That's not unreasonable.

Where did I say it was as hard as a calculus exam?

You didn't. I freely conceded that, already.

 

[Imaro]

C&C I can't speak to. I've heard C&C is much easier, and I'm sure in some aspects of that game are easier. 1st Edition AD&D? I'd argue that. Some numbers go up, and that's a good thing. Other numbers go down, and that's a good thing. It's still a learning curve.

NPC or PC creation in high-level games is unnecessarily difficult. Don't even get me started on epic. Anything 1st through 10th, I could almost literally do in my sleep.



I know. Raven Crowking pointed that out. I violated my own "No posting before coffee" policy. I'm drinking my first cup, now, and remembering why I made that policy to begin with. You're free to completely disregard that post. I would delete it, but I prefer to let it hang there in all of its foolish glory.



Sure. D&D character creation takes longer than five minutes, and if 5-minute character creation is a must-have for someone, I'd recommend they stay far away from D&D, far far away from anything by White Wolf, and far far far far far far far far away from GURPS.



In order for them to understand ALL the rules? I don't understand ALL the rules. That's part of the reason I come on message forums: to discuss the rules, and learn about them.

Learning how to play a game - any game - takes time. D&D has a learning curve, sure. But magnitudes larger? No, I don't buy that at all. I've taught people how to play in a single pick-up session, and you know what? That's not unreasonable.



You didn't. I freely conceded that, already.

It's cool Molonel. And I just want to say to everyone else if I'm coming off antagonistic I am sorry.

I like D&D 3.x(I've spent enough hard earned cash on the books) and I like alot of the mechanical changes they implemented in it. But increasingly I've found it kind of a drag to run, and I also realize I don't have the type of players who are willing to invest in rules mastery enough to get what I want out of it that I don't get with C&C. This isn't a problem with the game and I can admit that.

This situation,however, has made me realize that there is a sort of charm within simplicity that I also like. I also enjoy the fact that new players and experienced players aren't on two different playing fields. Just my .02 cents though, and oppinions will vary.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This situation,however, has made me realize that there is a sort of charm within simplicity that I also like.

Yeah.

My D&D houserules ramp up the complexity, but my Dr. Who d20 houserules remove a lot of the complexity. It really depends upon the effect you are going for.


RC

 

[molonel]

It's cool Molonel. And I just want to say to everyone else if I'm coming off antagonistic I am sorry.

Nope. You're not being antagonistic. I was just wearing my sphincter as a necktie. Some coffee allowed me to remove it.

There's a reason I try to have one cup before I go to any forums. I just demonstrated why rather nicely.

I like D&D 3.x(I've spent enough hard earned cash on the books) and I like alot of the mechanical changes they implemented in it. But increasingly I've found it kind of a drag to run, and I also realize I don't have the type of players who are willing to invest in rules mastery enough to get what I want out of it that I don't get with C&C. This isn't a problem with the game and I can admit that.

Fair enough. People have different feels and goals in the games they run. I have friends who won't run anything but White Wolf because they enjoy diceless gaming, and hate - literally HATE - classes and level-based gaming. I have other friends who enjoy the granularity and adapabiltiy of GURPS. You can run a gun-running smuggler and a werewolf and a medieval knight in the same group, and under the same point-buy system, and it kind of (sort of) makes sense. Other folks like Conan OGL and Grim Tales for the low-magic aspect of it. I run d20 Modern games because it allows me to run an X-Files sort of gritty game.

Like I said, I'll buy Castles & Crusades, eventually. Along with Conan OGL and the Star Wars Saga edition. Simplicity and elegance is something I enjoy. And if that's your cup of tea, then I can see why you'd prefer a different system.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Nope. You're not being antagonistic. I was just wearing my sphincter as a necktie. Some coffee allowed me to remove it.

And now you made me spit out my coffee all over the keyboard!

 

[molonel]

And now you made me spit out my coffee all over the keyboard!

When you post a stinking floater, there's really nothing to do except admit it, and get on with life. There is really no point in arguing if you can't admit when you're wrong.

Leastways, that's how I see it.

 

[MerricB]

Just another note: The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde has in the text words to the effect of "generating 1st level characters doesn't take that long, so you should be ok to go in the same session you make the PCs".

In BRP or Strombringer 5th ed., Your character can start out the way you want him to, you have just as many options and a higher amount of customability with none of the wrangling, twisting and matching you have to do with D&D 3.x to get your concept together.

The reason I stuck with D&D over these systems(up until now) is that it afforded speed in the sense that it was class-bassed. Your abilitie we're laid out for you, it was quick, easy and fun. Did I have the same customization as the above games? No. but that wasn't what I played D&D for. We all understood we were playing archetypes, but speed and ease of getting started often outweighed customability. Now that's just not the case. It doesn't do either of these(point-buy or class bassed) gaming well.

Hmm. I'd say it does options well. More so, it keeps the options within the level framework, so that encounter balance is possible.

I'm not really that familiar with the latest editions of BRP or Stormbringer, but, in your opinion, how easy would it be to use those systems to do the combat-heavy gaming with the significant character advancement that D&D does extremely well?

Cheers!

 

[Imaro]

Just another note: The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde has in the text words to the effect of "generating 1st level characters doesn't take that long, so you should be ok to go in the same session you make the PCs".




Hmm. I'd say it does options well. More so, it keeps the options within the level framework, so that encounter balance is possible.

I'm not really that familiar with the latest editions of BRP or Stormbringer, but, in your opinion, how easy would it be to use those systems to do the combat-heavy gaming with the significant character advancement that D&D does extremely well?

Cheers!

I think Stormbringer 5th ed./BRP does a pretty good job, especially since it's based on percentages. IMHO oppinion it's almost intuitive if you know the ranges of your PC's skills. If your PC's weapon skils are in the 45-65% range then you know an easy challenge opponent is 25%-35% an equal challenge opponent is 45-65% a hard challenge opponent would have 70-85% and a really hard(killer) opponent 85%-105% and up.

For non combat it's based on their percentile w/a modifier from the GM. So a "thief" with Pick Locks at 65% would get a +20% to pick an easy lock, +10% simple, +0% average, -10% hard, -20% complicated, etc.

They also include a chart that shows what your chance with a certain attribute vs. attribute in percentages as well for ease of pure strength vs. strength tests and things of that nature..

 

[Lanefan]

Just from purely personal observation, having watched players who know what they're doing crank out characters during sessions in both 3e and 1e (our version, modified to be probably somewhat more complex than the original as far as char-gen goes), I'd say it takes noticeably longer to get a character from initial-dice-roll stage to hand-sheet-to-DM-for-approval stage in 3e than it does in 1e, assuming similar levels. And the higher the level, the bigger the difference.

And while pre-builds are handy for speeding things up, doesn't that defeat the point of all the flexibility 3e is supposed to have, if everyone uses the pre-builds?

Lanefan