An Examination of Differences between Editions

[MerricB]

Besides, did Mentzer really complicate it greatly? Am I wrong that my statements about chargen held through the Companion set? What did the Master set (or even Immortal) add to 1st level chargen? I thought the general skill system didn't appear until the Gazs. Is weapon mastery in the Master set?

Weapon Mastery is in the Master set. (And I do think that's a complicated system).

Cheers!

 

[RFisher]

Toughness is just an example. It's a good example because it is easy to understand. It's a bad example because it simplifies the issue. Don't confuse a trivial example with a trivial issue.

 

[RFisher]

I've made the point before, and I'll make it again: 3e allows the players to invest as much time into the game as the DM does. Where earlier editions didn't allow much thought about the game from the player's role when the game wasn't being played, 3e keeps it interesting by having all these choices - character advancement - to play around with out of the session.

Some players have choosen to invest as much time in the game as the DM in every edition I've played. They didn't need permission from the game to do so.

If mastering & navigating rules is where you find interest, then 3e gives you nigh as much of that as you can take on both sides of the screen.

Weapon Mastery is in the Master set. (And I do think that's a complicated system).

Well, I've never tried it, but I did do a triple-take when I came across the weapon mastery charts in the RC! I wondered if I had a mis-print with something out of another game. So, I'm more than willing to concede that point.

 

[dcas]

I've made the point before, and I'll make it again: 3e allows the players to invest as much time into the game as the DM does.

And earlier editions allowed the DM to invest as little time in the game as the players did.

 

[MerricB]

And earlier editions allowed the DM to invest as little time in the game as the players did.

Heh. If I don't want to invest time preparing a D&D session, I can (just as easily) with 3e. Just use monsters and NPCs as written in the books and it's all set.

(One of the sillier adventures I ran was with the 1e Random Dungeon tables in a 3e game. Ended up being quite memorable due to a couple of tricks I improvised...)

Cheers!

 

[Hussar]

Some players have choosen to invest as much time in the game as the DM in every edition I've played. They didn't need permission from the game to do so.

Now this I find interesting. Outside of chargen, what could a player really do to invest his time in a DM's campaign in earlier editions? Any plans or ideas he may have would have to be vetted by the DM and could be vetoed pretty quickly by in game events. The player couldn't spend time thinking about equipment (completely the purview of the DM), hirelings or henchmen (again, DM), proficiencies weren't exactly time demanding, spells (DM, again). So, what could a player do with his time to add to his character outside of game time?

As far as the Complete Idiot's Guide goes, well, it is true that you can make creating a character very complicated. If the DM allows all books for example, chargen can be a right pain in the petoot. I also think that there are a number of gamers who start campaigns at higher levels, which can exponentially increase complexity.

It doesn't have to, but it can.

To bring up another topic for a moment: I find these conversations interesting in that they outline some assumptions that I never really considered. Take the idea that 1e is humanocentric. This honestly never occured to me. The groups that I played in played mostly demi-humans. I was odd man out for playing humans usually. Later groups added humanoid races like minotaurs and half-ogres. Even the adventures we played rarely featured more than a handful of humans. Slave Lords, while it does have humans, features a lot of humanoids, Against the Giants (duh), Hidden Shrine of Tomoachan, even the low level adventures like Cult of the Reptile God have mostly critter opponents.

Honestly, for me, the idea that no one wants to play humans has always been true in D&D. At best, my groups were about half humans, and usually a lot less. In my current campaigns, the ratio has remained pretty constant.

 

[Hussar]

And earlier editions allowed the DM to invest as little time in the game as the players did.

I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but, I'll repeat it again. At one point in my World's Largest Dungeon game, I did no prep for six months of gaming. I got that far ahead. My prep consisted of finding minis for the critters, creating die rollers for the critters (makes life easier on OpenRPG) and typing in the room descriptions. I had three regions prepped ahead of time, and sat back for weekly sessions for six months.

I am a LAZY DM.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but, I'll repeat it again. At one point in my World's Largest Dungeon game, I did no prep for six months of gaming. I got that far ahead. My prep consisted of finding minis for the critters, creating die rollers for the critters (makes life easier on OpenRPG) and typing in the room descriptions. I had three regions prepped ahead of time, and sat back for weekly sessions for six months.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that you didn't have to put the prep time in first. And, as we know from other threads, when you failed to put the prep time in the consequences startled you.

(Of course, to run WLD again, I'd have to put massive prep time into it, so that is a perhaps a fault of the setting.....I wonder how much prep Ptolus requires?)

 

[MerricB]

I wonder how much prep Ptolus requires?

I suspect... lots. This is without having read it.

My basic feeling is that urban campaigns/adventures are the toughest to pull off successfully, as they need you to juggle so many NPCs, as well as having so many potential paths for the PCs to take.

Cheers!

 

[Hussar]

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that you didn't have to put the prep time in first. And, as we know from other threads, when you failed to put the prep time in the consequences startled you.

(Of course, to run WLD again, I'd have to put massive prep time into it, so that is a perhaps a fault of the setting.....I wonder how much prep Ptolus requires?)

As I mentioned before, the prep I did do consisted of reading the module, doing some light photoshopping and data entry. The problems that I had came from poor design, which had very little to do with my prep time. Had the module been well designed, then I wouldn't have had any problems.

Like I said, I ran 3 full regions, about 8 levels of PC's, without doing a minutes prep work beyond the initial picture stuff and typing. Had I been playing tabletop, I would have had zero prep to do. I realize you would do massive prep, but, that's not a fault of the module. You don't have to do that. You can, if you choose, but, it's certainly not necessary.