An Idea Crazy Enough to Work

[Galethorn]

So, I was thinking about how spellcasters generally function in most game systems...

At the most general terms, casters tend to trade frailty for 'big' effects (damage, turning people into stone, becoming invisible, teleportation, etc.).

My proposal is this: a system where there are two main kinds of magic; combat magic (for fighting), and ritual magic (for doing 'big' things outside of combat). This would be for a 'lower than D&D-level magic' setting, of course, but the concept could easily be used for something fairly high-magic (on par with or even above D&D).

Combat magic would consist of things like imbuing weapons with fire, 'plain old magic', or whatever, as well as throwing around balls/rays of things for the more powerful magic-users.

Ritual magic would consist of, well, rituals. Rituals would be for things like blessing stuff/people, banishing spirits, making magic items, screwing with the weather, etc...you know, ''traditional' "real" magic. There would probably be 'minor' rituals which would be more like short prayers (which would tend to do very minor things, as opposed to setting things on fire, or summoning a demon from the abyss)
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Now, how would characters gain access to these two types of magic? well...

First of all, I think a sort of 'magic sensitive' feat/talent/whatever (depending on the system you want to start from) would be in order, sort of on the same theme as Force Sensitivity...it would give characters some extra 'supernatural' sorts of options for spending action/hero/courage/whatever points, as well as allowing them to manipulate magic.

For combat magic, it would vary with the power of what you were doing. To make a sword cut supernaturally well, it would be a matter of annointing/blessing/whatever the blade that morning, and then reciting some words before drawing it in combat; something any magic-sensitive character could do if they knew the right words. More advanced things (like whacking people with a staff at a distance, ala Gandalf/Saruman in the movies) would be based on an actual skill (or skills) that would require a certain amount of (semi-)formal training to learn.

Rituals would be a matter of magic-sensitive and being smart enough to remember the steps. Learning rituals would involve research in private libraries, finding someone who's willing to teach them, going into meditative/contemplative trances, or even conversing with spirits/demons.

If you were going to go with d20 as the base system, you might see a list of combat magic skills like this...

Enhance Ability
Imbue Weapon
Elemental Control

And feats like Flameblade (prereqs.: 5+ ranks in Imbue Weapon, 5+ ranks in Elemental Control, Magic Sensitive), and so forth.


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Now, the big question: what would 'magic users' look like in such a system? well...

The classical (as in 'what people thought of when they heard "wizard" before the advent of D&D) wizards would tend to be very intelligent characters who sought obscure writings to learn new rituals. Most would probably know some simple combat magic, but would focus on rituals. The most powerful wizards would know how to stave off old age, and research new rituals in their spare time. Even so, wizards wouldn't be terribly feared in an unexpected fight--but nobody would want to make a wizard angry; after all, they would probably know how (or be able to figure out how) to curse you and your whole family with bad luck.

(Evil) 'Sorcerers' would be the ones who were skilled with the more diabolical rituals (like summoning demons and raising the dead), and know lots of combat magic...they would be the ones that the [Heroes] would be fighting to oppose.

'Priests' would be the saints or prophets of a particular religion, and use the rituals they learned from their deity (or deity's representatives) to do, well, whatever it was the deity particularly wanted them to...usually healing for the good deities, and smiting of infidels for the less-than-

'Shamans' would know a number of useful rituals that their mentor had taught them, and be the go-to guy/gal in a village when you needed to know your fortune, or have a curse lifted, or place one on an unfaithful spouse.

It could go on and on...a PC caster could be anything from a 'warrior of light' who imbues his sword with holy fire, to a 'traveling wizard' seeking to learn more arcane rituals, to a 'sly magician' who uses his powers for persuasion, to a 'crazy old shaman' who summons spirits to do his bidding.


So, was this an epiphany...or just a brain fart?

 

[Galethorn]

Ooh! Ooh! Another idea for the prospective system, not related to magic...

Ok, so, with this magic system, I'd go on to combine what I like the most of the various systems out there...

1. Use the M&M/Blue Rose 'damage save'/toughness mechanic (or something like it), OR use GT/Modern style HP-with-low-MDT (which I've actually used and like, unlike the damage save/toughness mechanic which I like more on a philosophical level, but have yet to actually use in a real game)

2. Use the D20M/Grim Tales base classes (Strong, Tough, Smart, etc.)/talent and feat system, modified to fit with the rest of the system

3. Use something somewhere between SWD20 Force Points and GT Action Points...have their use be somehow related to good-vs.-evil, and have various feats/talents for using them in different ways, and/or getting more out of them (like "Lucky: your Action Points regenerate at twice the normal rate" and so on)

4. Use a simplified skill system--fewer skills, a couple categories of skills that determines how good you are with them (based on your level) instead of ranks, etc.

So, this is the basic structure my theoretical magic system would be operating under.

 

[Andor]

If you want to do D20 take a look at the Incantation rules from Urban Arcana or Unearthed Arcana. I really haven't seen much talked about for these rules, but they are (I think) quite well done as rules for ritual magic in DnD.

And basically all you have to do is figure out what level of magic you want to be combat castable, and then just leave those spells alone. Then take your remaining spells and chuck the ones you don't want and turn the rest into Incantations. Want to keep teleport for plot purpose but remove it as a 'bugout' spell? Incantation. Since you're thinking of using D20 Modern anyway, there'd be just about no work to do.

 

[Galethorn]

Well, incantations are good, and they even manage to to hit most of the points I would want them to...but the mechanics as written don't work for what I'm going for; a system where rituals are the 'standard' sort of magic in the setting; ranging all the way from little things like starting a campfire by 'praying' for some burnt-out embers to come back to life, to big things like sacrificing virgins to unnaturally prolong one's life, or seeing the future by gazing into a cauldron pull of sacred oils and herbs. Incantations, as written, only work for 'big', rare effects...whereas I would want these rituals to be a bit more general.

Incantations would be a good place to start, though, I have to admit, and they're part of what gave me the idea in the first place.

As for combat magic...well, what I want to do is drop the whole idea of spells (that is, a 'thing' that you either know or don't know, that you can choose to do at whatever point you want, which succeeds if you don't get damaged and then fail a concentration check). I want combat magic to be, well, imbuing weapons with magic, and in extreme cases, throwing balls of fire and bolts of lightning--I want spellcasters to make attack rolls.

The way I see combat magic working (after thinking a bit) is like this...

Step 1: you learn a 'magic attack' by succeeding a spellcraft check (which is preceeded by a research/gather info/whatever check to find the scroll/book/teacher/spirit to learn it from)

Step 2: You spend an action point to activate a 'magic attack'.

Step 3: You can continue using the attack as many times as your BAB (or BMAB--base magic attack bonus?) allows within the duration (which would be '1d6 rounds per character level' or whatever)

The 'magic attack' could be a damage bonus on a weapon you're holding, or a ray attack, or even a 'magic defense' you could put up; like a fire-shield or somesuch. Each one's power would be balanced with the difficulty to learn it, and the really deadly ones would require making deals with unsavory spirits and demons.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm working on something vaguely similar for the D20 Modern version of Elements of Magic, by E.N. Publishing. In short, to get access to magic, you need to spend a feat, which lets you take skill ranks in one or more magical skills. There are ten magical skills in total -- Attack, Charm, Create, Cure, Defend, Divine, Illusion, Move, Summon, and Transform.

Because everyone has skill points, any class can cast spells. The most flexible casters will be the ones with lots of skill points (i.e., Smart Heroes), but anyone can pick up a few tricks if they're interested.

There also is a ritual magic system with very high DC Knowledge (arcane lore) checks, which are only really possible if you either have allies helping you perform the ritual, or if you are a Smart Hero with the Savant talent for Knowledge (arcane lore). I statted up a 12th level sample character and got something like +30 to Knowledge (arcane lore), using just core d20 Modern rules.

I'm nearly done with the system. It will be out later this month.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Birthright Realm Magic approached this in a simailar vein, as did the overcast rules in Rolemaster.

Which is not to say it's a bad idea - simply one which is good enough its been thought of a few times

 

[Galethorn]

Knowing that I like the Element of Magic stuff I've seen in the past, I think I'll err on the side of laziness and wait to see that D20M version you're working on. It sounds like just the sort of thing I'd want...

 

[Conaill]

I'm working on something vaguely similar for the D20 Modern version of Elements of Magic, by E.N. Publishing. In short, to get access to magic, you need to spend a feat, which lets you take skill ranks in one or more magical skills. There are ten magical skills in total -- Attack, Charm, Create, Cure, Defend, Divine, Illusion, Move, Summon, and Transform.

Because everyone has skill points, any class can cast spells. The most flexible casters will be the ones with lots of skill points (i.e., Smart Heroes), but anyone can pick up a few tricks if they're interested.

Hmm. I love the general approach, but a single feat seems a little too cheap to get full access to any kind of magic.

It's fine to say that anyone has the *potential* to develop magical skill. But it should still be relatively rare that someone actually does break through that barrier. I wouldn't want every common Joe on the street to have magical capabilities. Perhaps one feat to unlock the latent "spark", and a second one to be able to use it reliably?

Another danger is that people might just cherrypick individual magic skills. So every Commoner craftsman will have some skill points in Create but nothing else. Or every Fighter might have some points in Attack or Defend. Looking at some other skill-based magic systems, GURPS gets around this by having each skill be a separate skill and requiring lower-level related prerequisite spells. So you can't just put all your skill points into one single spell of interest to you, you actually have to build up somewhat of a repertoire of related spells. Ars Magica on the other hand uses broad spell categories like you suggest, but has "verbs" and "nouns", so you need at least one of each to do anything. For example, if you want to be able to charm people, you need skill points in "Charm", *and* in "Person". And once you've gotten good at both of those, it'd be a waste not to put some points in other verbs and nouns as well, so you naturally develop away from being a "one-shot wonder".

 

[jmucchiello]

Have you looked at the ritual warrior in Arcana Evolved?

 

[JohnSnow]

It's fine to say that anyone has the *potential* to develop magical skill. But it should still be relatively rare that someone actually does break through that barrier. I wouldn't want every common Joe on the street to have magical capabilities. Perhaps one feat to unlock the latent "spark", and a second one to be able to use it reliably?

In Fantasy Flight's Midnight campaign setting, magic works slightly different than in "generic" D&D. Any character can cast spells IF they take the feat "Magecraft." After that, ever school of spellcasting takes a feat. For flavor reasons, Midnight breaks two D&D schools (conjuration and evocation) into greater and lesser variants.

Characters casting level is equal to their character level. Characters can cast any spell of level = character level/2 (round down). In addition, spells take "spell energy" to cast equal to their level. So a 6th level character can cast 3rd-level spells, at the cost of 3 spell energy. Characters get spell energy equal to their ability score bonus in their spellcasting attribute. There are three types of spellcasters: hermetic (int-based), spiritual (wis-based), and charismatic (uh, duh!). Spells also take xp to learn. All the spells you know can be cast spontaneously if you have the spell energy.

There's a specialized spellcasting class (Channeler) that grants extra spell energy equal to your level in that class. It also gets bonus feats and some other nifty abilities, and can learn spells for less cost in XP. Finally, channelers (or multiclass characters with mostly channeler levels) add 1 to their level before dividing by 2 to determine what level spells they can cast. Or to put it another way, they round up instead of down. So while a 7th level non-channeler can only cast 3rd-level spells, a 7th level channeler (or multiclass 7th-level character with at least 4 channeler levels) can cast 4th level spells.

Two other items. If you run out of spell energy, you can cast spells by causing spell damage: temporary Con damage which can only be healed by getting a good night's sleep (8 hours). Finally, there are rituals which take extra time (10 min/level of the spell) and can be cast by any character who has the feat (a change instituted in Midnight 2e) and learns the ritual. Extra participants reduce the spell damage of performing the ritual. Any character with the Magecraft feat can participate in the casting of a ritual.

That's the basics. Pretty interesting system. And a nice change from standard D&D.