D&D 4E An in depth rules discussion on the mechanical problems and breakthroughs of 4e

[Aria Silverhands]

So how good was your character at that role? You must have had an odd build of wizard to make his spot checks worth a damn.

I didn't choose feats and skills based on optimal choices. I made them based on concept and how the character was being played. Alertness, skill focus: spot, and a dm houserule that let everyone add two skills to their class list made her spot checks reasonable. That specific wizard was very paranoid. Rightly so, given that she was neutral evil in a party with a paladin and a lawful good cleric.

"using a spell or two" to shape the battlefield would suggest that you weren't really holding things in reserve.

Yeah, I was. I could have used a dozen spells during most combats, but I held back to allow everyone else their chance to shine. I used key spells at key points in the battle to overcome a disadvantage or create an advantage for my 'allies'.

And "conservation of arcane energies" was shorthand for "not doing anything worthwhile for most of playtime".

If I use a wall spell to split the enemies attacking our group, or to prevent reinforcements from flanking us, that's very worthwhile. Even if it's the only thing I do in a battle. Maybe it was just the way I played wizards, but I viewed them as strategists, using only the right amount of power needed and nothing more to overcome any challenges.

 

[Spatula]

So, what mechanical breakthroughs has 4e brought? Here is a small list in no particular order.
8. PoL setting
9. Actions (Standard, Move, Minor)

How is "PoL setting" a mechanical breakthrough? Not only is it setting material, not mechanics, it's what the game has been doing for 30 years now. Giving it a name is not a breakthrough.

The actions also aren't new. Minor is a new name for swift actions, which were introduced in the Miniatures Handbook.

Everything is not hunky dory though. Like everything in life this RPG it is not perfect. It has some flaws some more serious than others. Here is a list of system problems potential or otherwise.
4. Streamlining all powers from all character types into one system (no excellent unique sub-systems)
5. Class imbalance (Ranger)
6. Non-Weapon attacks missing a "weapon training" bonus to hit
7. Endless magical at-will attacks, should a wizard be able to magic missile all day?

"Endless magical at-will attacks" isn't a mechanical problem... "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

#6 is by design. How is it a problem?

#5, Rangers look really good on paper right now. We'll see how it plays out.

#4, A lack of "excellent unique subsystems" (you're kinda presupposing the outcome there, aren't you? what about non-excellent unique subsystems?) isn't a problem with the mechanics. Unless ease of play is a problem.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Considering that magic missile requires a roll to hit now there are not many differences. You can use INT to improve hit chance instead of DEX and do not have to track crossbow ammo, so thats something.

You can use a primary stat, you're not at half bab, and you use a primary stat for damage too. It's massively better than the wizard with a xbow scenario from 3e

 

[Saeviomagy]

If I use a wall spell to split the enemies attacking our group, or to prevent reinforcements from flanking us, that's very worthwhile. Even if it's the only thing I do in a battle. Maybe it was just the way I played wizards, but I viewed them as strategists, using only the right amount of power needed and nothing more to overcome any challenges.

See, I was pretty much the same - but it still lead to a lot of "well, using a spell would be a waste, so I guess I just stand around and do nothing". Which isn't the most interesting thing to be doing.

 

[Byronic]

I have some players who have been playing 3.x since it was released, and will shamelessly tell me they don't know how to play a cleric or a wizard. Gone are those days. Good riddence.

Really? I'm surprised, it doesn't seem that hard to play one. Maybe they should play one from level 1 once, that'll teach'em. Oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter if you play 4.0

I was talking about the fact that even though your character improves, the enemy bonuses keep pace so "perfectly" you're actually standing still - not about characters using the same abilities over and over.

It looks like they've done such a good job, you could almost use a coin flip instead of a d20 as the standard resolution method.

This is one of my biggest worries with 4th edition. It's something I didn't accept in Oblivion (thanks to mods I didn't have to) but I hopoe that it wouldn't be a problem with a good DM.

I was never bored holding my spells in reserve for fights that really needed that extra oomph. I would often just flit about the battlefield calling out hidden targets or concealed foes to the other combatants and use a spell or two to shape the battlefield. Conservation of arcane energies was paramount to the wizards personal safety, which was more important than the party.

I usually keep my spells in reserve as well AND have fun. I suppose it's because you play DnD with friends. And a crappy weapon can make it all the more fun when you DO get a critical.

All in all though I'm quite happy that if I play a magic based class I'll never have to wield a weapon unless I want to.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

See, I was pretty much the same - but it still lead to a lot of "well, using a spell would be a waste, so I guess I just stand around and do nothing". Which isn't the most interesting thing to be doing.

I never saw it that way. I guess it was just the attitude I played that wizard with. She was an ice savant/archmage in the end and was so confident in her superiority, that she felt she didn't need to display it.

 

[Thasmodious]

It seems that we’ll no longer see ‘off-type’ characters (e.g. tough wizards that can wield a blade and don’t mind going toe-to-toe once in a while. Or lightly armored, dual-wielding Halfling fighters) since every character who is not built optimally for his role/class/build will be at a disadvantage.

Note: I haven’t played 4e at all, nor do I, yet, have the books – feel free to correct this misconception and or provide examples.

I will attempt to correct this misconception with the multiclassed dwarf wizard 6 (fighter) I built last night:

(anyone want to tell me how to do the show/hide box around this so I can shrink this post, I'll edit it and add the tags)

Nurgel Ironhammer
Dwarf Wizard 6 / Fighter
Unaligned

Str: 15 +2
Con: 16 +3
Dex: 10
Int: 17 +3
Wis: 13 +1
Cha: 8 -1

Hp: 51 Bloodied: 25
HS: 12 Surge: 9
(+4 hp/level)

½ Lvl: 3

AC: 18 (+3 int +3 lvl +1 mag +1 implement)
Fort: 18 (+3 abil +3 lvl +2 cloak)
Ref: 18 (+3 abil +3 lvl +2 cloak)
Will: 18 (+1 abil +2 class +3 lvl +2 cloak)
note: +2 AC and saves when bloodied (item)

Init: +3 Speed: 5

Skills: Arcana +12; Dungeon +11; Endurance +13; History +11, Insight +9
Bonuses: +1 item bonus to athletics and str checks
Languages: Common, dwarf

Feats
Wizard prof: cloth armor, quarterstaff, dagger
Student of the sword – endurance training; 1/enc as free action add +1 to attack roll with two handed weapon, mark the target whether hit or miss until end of your next turn
Novice Power – replace one wizard enc with a fighter enc
Power Attack - -2 attack +3 damage (2 hander)
Toughness - +5 hp each tier


Racial Abilities
Cast Iron Stomach - +5 to save v. poison
Dwarven Resilience – Use 2nd wind as a minor action
Dwarven Proficiency – throwing hammer and warhammer
Encumbered Speed – Move normal speed even in heavy armor
Stand Your Groun – Forced move 1 square less, save to avoid prone

Class Abilities
Implement Mastery – Staff of defense - +1 AC, 1/enc immed. interrupt, gain bonus to defense against one attack equal to your Con mod.
Cantrips, Ritual Casting
Spellbook – gain 2 utility or daily powers each time you gain one, holds rituals, 3 at 1st, 2 more at 5th, 11th, 15th, 21st, 25th


Basic Attacks
Quarterstaff +9 (+2 prof +2 enh +3 lvl +2 str) 1d8+5 (+1 2h +2 enh +2 str)
Warhammer +8 (+2 prof, +1 enh +3 lvl +2 str) 1d10+4 (+1 2h +1 enh +2 str)
Int Attack mod: +8 (+3 lvl +3 int +2 enh (imp)) Damage: +5 (+3 int+2 enh (imp))

Powers
At Wills:
Ghost Sound Arcane, Illusion, Standard, ranged 10
Light Arcane, Minor, Ranged 5, Target: object or unoccupied space
Mage Hand Arcane, Conjuration, Minor, Ranged 5
Prestidigitation Arcane, standard, ranged 2
Ray of Frost Arcane, Cold, Implement, Standard, Ranged 10, Target: 1 creature
Attack: Int vs Fort Hit: 1d6 + Int mod cold + slow until end of next turn
Thunderwave Arcane, Implement, Thunder, Standard, Close blast 3
Target: each in burst Attack: Int v. Fort Hit: 1d6+int mod thunder + push a
number of squares equal to wis mod

Encounters:
Burning Hands Arcane, Fire, Implement, Standard, Close blast 5
Target: Each creature in blast Attack: Int v Ref Hit: 2d6+int fire
Crushing Blow (fighter att 3) Martial, weapon, standard, melee
Target: One creature Attack: Str vs AC
Hit: 2[w]+str Weapon: hammer – dam bonus equal to con mod


Dailies:
Acid Arrow Acid, Arcane, Implement, Standard, Ranged 20
Primary Target: One creature Secondary: Each creature adj to primary
Attack: Int v Ref Hit: 2d8 + int acid + ongoing 5 acid (save ends)
Secondary attack: Int v Ref Hit: 1d8 + int + 5 ongoing acid
Miss: Half damage, 2 ongoing acid to primary, no secondary attack
Freezing Cloud Arcane, Cold, Implement, Standard, Area burst 2 within 10
Target: Each creature in burst Attack: Int v. Fort
Hit: 1d8+int cold Miss: Half damage Effect: cloud lasts until end of
next turn. Any creature that enters the cloud or starts its turn there is subject
to another attack. Dismiss as a minor action.
Bigby’s Icy Grasp Arcane, cold, conjuration, implement, standard, Ranged 20
Effect: conjure 5’ tall hand of ice in unoccupied sq in range. Move action to move
hand up to 6 squares. Target: 1 creature adjacent to hand Att: Int vs. Ref
Hit: 2d8+int cold and the hand grabs the target. Use your fort or ref to oppose escape
Sustain Minor: Target grabbed takes 1d8+int cold. As standard can attack another
target, but it must release target it has grabbed
Web Arcane, Implement, Zone, standard, Area burst 2 within 20
Target: each creature in burst Attack: Int vs Ref Hit: target is immobilized (save)
Effect: Creates zone of webs until end of encounter. Zone is difficult terrain. Any
creature that ends move in web is immobilized (save ends)

Utilities:
Shield Arcane, Force, Immediate Interrupt, Personal
Trigger: Hit by attack Effect: +4 AC and Ref until end of next turn
Expeditious Retreat Arcane, Move, Personal Effect: Shift up to twice speed
Dimension Door Arcane, Teleportation, Move, personal Effect: Teleport 10 squares
Wall of Fog Arcane, Conjuration, Standard, Area wall 8 within 10
Effect: conjure wall of arcane fog, lasts until end of next turn, sustain minor, up to
4 high. Fog grants concealment to creatures in its space and blocks line of sight

Equipment
Cloth armor
Adventurer’s Kit
Spellbook

Cloak of Resistance +2 Power (daily) Minor gain resist 5 all until start next turn
Gauntlets of Ogre Power Property: +1 Athletics and Str checks
Power (daily) Free - +5 power bonus to damage on hit with melee attack
Staff of Winter +2 Crit: +2d6 cold Power (daily): Free, after using cold power,
all enemies within 3 squares of you are immobilized (save ends)
Hammer of Lightning +1 crit: +1d6
Power (at will, lightning): free action, all damage with weapon is lightning
Power (daily, lightning): Free, when hit with weapon, target and each enemy
within 2 squares of target take 1d6 lightning damage
Bloodthread Armor +1 (cloth)
Property: When bloodied, gain +2 item bonus to AC and saves​