OGL An IP lawyer just broke down the new OGL draft (v1.2)

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I don’t think that’s quite fair. There are a lot (A LOT) of alternatives out there. And more every month.

There is no shortage of alternatives. The real question is why D&D and it’s clones and prior editions have a stranglehold on the market.
My point is the community really isn't supporting it. And 3PPS are thus running to make D&D clones and compatible stuff.

You would think in a world of Kickstarter and Patreon and better acceptance of nerd culture, things outside of the D&D verse would rise to be notable forces in TTRPGs. But it's really only the stuff that been here since before the turn of the century. Because the community doesn't support it and thus call for an openess that doesn't exist in any other gaming sphere.

TTRPGs just lives in this weird place legally and community wise.
 

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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
My point is the community really isn't supporting it. And 3PPS are thus running to make D&D clones and compatible stuff.

You would think in a world of Kickstarter and Patreon and better acceptance of nerd culture, things outside of the D&D verse would rise to be notable forces in TTRPGs. But it's really only the stuff that been here since before the turn of the century. Because the community doesn't support it and thus call for an openess that doesn't exist in any other gaming sphere.

TTRPGs just lives in this weird place legally and community wise.

Oh, on that I agree.

It‘s profoundly weird that we are even having this debate. No one gets up in arms about not being use the Monopoly Open License, or the Marvel Open License, or the Fortnite Open License.

No one demands that Apple (for instance) set up an independent body to determine if Apple was correct in denying your app from its store because Apple deemed it offensive. Well, I’m sure someone has, but they’re not going to succeed.

We have a weird community … precisely because of that dominance. Don’t like the license? Play something else. Competition solves a lot of problems.
 

While it is true that representations by WotC may have rendered an otherwise revocable document irrevocable, it does not necessarily mean that they lied then or now. It can just mean that they heavily implied things then and are advancing a dubious legal argument now.
Perhaps. They could have changed their mind, whatever. But there's this thing called estoppel. And that might be relevant here, wouldn't it? They've made public assurances that they considered the license to be irrevocable (and indeed not at all "de-authorizable", quite the opposite!). And they've been quiet for 23 years, acting as if this was the case. They even put out 4e under the GSL instead of the OGL 1.0a because they didn't want it to go viral in some copyleft license they couldn't control.
 

A monopoly of D&D is not good for the players, and we need more options, but we should understand most of several players don't want to learn several game systems. I love the lore of my Eclipse Phase RPG but I am not yet to the abilities scores yet. And in smaller towns to find players who know the same game system is harder. Lots of players are very used and confortable with the d20 and they don't want to learn other.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
A monopoly of D&D is not good for the players, and we need more options, but we should understand most of several players don't want to learn several game systems. I love the lore of my Eclipse Phase RPG but I am not yet to the abilities scores yet. And in smaller towns to find players who know the same game system is harder. Lots of players are very used and confortable with the d20 and they don't want to learn other.

My roommate played 3 different video games last night. People can learn what they want to learn. We just have to support other games seriously as a community.

This is why I am soon saddened by the mess in the development of Bloodlines 2 and Cyberpunk which could have bought another TTRPG to the mainstream. This whole mess is because the weird legal space we need to mod the single mainstream TTPG. WOTC would act different if competition wasn't several dozen million dollars under them.
 

Perhaps. They could have changed their mind, whatever. But there's this thing called estoppel. And that might be relevant here, wouldn't it? They've made public assurances that they considered the license to be irrevocable (and indeed not at all "de-authorizable", quite the opposite!). And they've been quiet for 23 years, acting as if this was the case. They even put out 4e under the GSL instead of the OGL 1.0a because they didn't want it to go viral in some copyleft license they couldn't control.
Yes "estoppel" is what I was referencing when I said their prior representations may have changed their rights. "Laches" is the principle that whatever rights they had may have been lost by sitting on them too long.

"They could have changed their mind" is an absurd concept, when "their mind" is a legal construct. This is a whole different set of people operating this corporation now than 20-odd years ago. While they are legally bound by that past incarnation's actions (and perhaps inactions), it's important not to let the legal and verbal fictions of a corporation being a person, trick us into making undue value judgements about the corporation changing its legal stance.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Yes "estoppel" is what I was referencing when I said their prior representations may have changed their rights. "Laches" is the principle that whatever rights they had may have been lost by sitting on them too long.
.

To be clear, estoppel (with the required element of detrimental reliance) might be a great defense if WoTC were going after past works.

Not so much under their current theory (deauthorization and future works).
 

Olrox17

Hero
My roommate played 3 different video games last night. People can learn what they want to learn. We just have to support other games seriously as a community.

This is why I am soon saddened by the mess in the development of Bloodlines 2 and Cyberpunk which could have bought another TTRPG to the mainstream. This whole mess is because the weird legal space we need to mod the single mainstream TTPG. WOTC would act different if competition wasn't several dozen million dollars under them.
I see your argument, really, I do, but likening learning how to play a modern video game (or a board game) to learning a new and unfamiliar tabletop RPG is, well, just wrong.
You can learn a new video game or board game in 15 mins. TTRPGs take days, months, or even years if we’re talking about the GM role. Not the same ballpark, at all.

Learning a new TTRPG usually requires a tremendous amount of effort. How is it surprising that most people would rather learn the single most successful system and just play?
 



pemerton

Legend
So, do you think the amount of time/effort needed to learn or run a TTRPG is remotely comparable to the time/effort required to learn Monopoly, Call of Duty or Assassin’s Creed? Because if so, I would have to strongly disagree.
I've never played Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed.

In my experience, the time required to learn to play Cthulhu Dark or Wuthering Heights or Prince Valiant is less than that required to learn to play Seven Wonders (assuming, respectively, familiarity with the idea of character-driven RPGing and with the idea of resource-based board games).
 



Olrox17

Hero
The three RPGs I mentioned take about 10 minutes each to learn to play (assuming familiarity with character-driven RPGing).
I am, of course, using averages.
Do dirt-simple TTRPGs exist? Sure.
Do highly complex video game exist? Yup (Paradox Interactive’s strategy games, for example).
On average? Especially if we compare representatives of the mainstream market (which for TTRPGs, is sadly just D&D and derivatives)? No comparison.
 

pemerton

Legend
I am, of course, using averages.
Do dirt-simple TTRPGs exist? Sure.
Do highly complex video game exist? Yup (Paradox Interactive’s strategy games, for example).
On average? Especially if we compare representatives of the mainstream market (which for TTRPGs, is sadly just D&D and derivatives)? No comparison.
I took @Minigiant to be calling for a wider range of RPGs including non-D&D ones. So I don't feel it refutes their suggestion to point out that D&D derivatives are mechanically very complicated!
 

Olrox17

Hero
I took @Minigiant to be calling for a wider range of RPGs including non-D&D ones. So I don't feel it refutes their suggestion to point out that D&D derivatives are mechanically very complicated!
And I would like nothing more than to see Minigiant’s wish come to fruition. I just think the comparison used (videogames) isn’t apt.
Videogames are, on average, massively easier to get into than TTRPGs. Learning a new tabletop rpg will often require more time and effort than the average casual fan is willing to invest, which doesn’t happen with 95% of videogames.
 

mamba

Hero
But they've taken the opposite point of view when some people accepted the license in the first place. Indeed, those assurances may have induced those parties to accept the terms. So WotC is either lying now, or they were lying then.
that was 23 years ago, you can hardly argue that was the plan all along
 


mamba

Hero
Perhaps. They could have changed their mind, whatever. But there's this thing called estoppel. And that might be relevant here, wouldn't it? They've made public assurances that they considered the license to be irrevocable (and indeed not at all "de-authorizable", quite the opposite!). And they've been quiet for 23 years, acting as if this was the case. They even put out 4e under the GSL instead of the OGL 1.0a because they didn't want it to go viral in some copyleft license they couldn't control.
sure, go to court over it and find out. Same principle as with the 1.0a revocability. Yet almost all preferred to scurry away.
 


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