An irritating thing about PDFs...

[TheAuldGrump]

I don't think you're getting where we're going here. We haven't been talking about downloading copies of stuff you have no business having. We are talking about downloading pdf copies of books you physically own for convienence. I mean I could scan in the books and convert them to .pdf. I even have the hardware and software to do that. So what is morally wrong about downloading a copy from someone else?

I haven't defrauded Monte at all - I paid $30 in the store for Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and think it was worth every penny. Nor has he lost any sales. But by the letter of the law, I'm breaking it. A law with no chance of being caught and with no moral basis I do not feel compelled to obey.

And while we're at it, making copies is not stealing. Stealing implies that the original owner will be denied use of the item. Fraud would be a more appropriate word. Not saying it's right, just that 'downloading is just like stealing it from a game store!!11!' is incorrect and an overly emotive term.

Actually it can be considered 'Theft of Services' or even 'Counterfeiting'. Theft is theft, whether of labour or of material. Go talk to a lawyer about it. Don't take my word. Heck, there are sites online that will answer your question.

The problem is that the law has to cover a general concept. Breaking it down into specifics merely creates loop holes.

Also, do the people posting Book of Eldritch Might (which was the Monte Cook publication I was thinking of) check to see if the people downloading a copy have their own preexisting copy? Take three guesses.

The Auld Grump, done beating a dead horse.

 

[hrafnagud]

The Auld Grump, done beating a dead horse.

Hrafnagud, picking up the stick....

I can understand the concept that an individual carelessly distributing a pdf will, without doubt, end up violating the law. Furthermore, he will cause the creator/owner of the original product to lose money, since some portion of the people who received the pdf will no longer buy it. All true.

What I cannot understand is exactly just what I have stolen by downloading a pdf of something I already own in hardcopy. Have I cost the creator anything? Assuming I don't distribute it myself, I've not cost him a dime. To say I have stolen something necessitates another party having lost something.

I am not arguing whether or not I have broken the law in such a case; clearly I have. My question, yet to be answered, is why should I care? There is no victim here.

 

[xrpsuzi]

And while we're at it, making copies is not stealing.

No, making copies is not stealing. Distributing copies when you are not the publisher, without permission of the publisher, or a liscensed distributor for that publisher's material is stealing. Period. So if you are getting your stuff from any source outside of these three places, you are infact encouraging a system that of theft. Like the electronic version of something that fell off the back of a truck

If the PDF version is for sale somewhere, you should buy it, even if you have bought the actual book. See, you're not just paying for the ideas. You're paying for another format that makes the ideas accessible to you in a different manner than the actual book--and that has value. For some gamers, it's easier to have that information on the computer. That being said, I know some PDF publishers that give you the PDF for free when you buy the book. Joe and I did something like that with MMS:WE, where if you bought the PDF, you got a coupon for $10 off the book price at RPGmall.com. That way we could retro send to people who purchased the PDF before the book came out.

I'm not calling anyone an immoral bastard for using kazaa or burning something for a friend. I'm just saying don't call it "not stealing".

-suzi

 

[Numion]

I'm not calling anyone an immoral bastard for using kazaa or burning something for a friend. I'm just saying don't call it "not stealing".

Depends on the law. Like I said, DLing copyrighted material is legal here in finland, if it's for your own use (sharing or distributing isn't legal, though). It isn't stealing, any more than breathing is stealing air from others.

Stealing is defined by the law quite well, and this isn't it. Not here, anyway.

 

[jgbrowning]

Depends on the law. Like I said, DLing copyrighted material is legal here in finland, if it's for your own use (sharing or distributing isn't legal, though). It isn't stealing, any more than breathing is stealing air from others.

Stealing is defined by the law quite well, and this isn't it. Not here, anyway.

It may be legal for you to download it in Finland, but you're encouraging another person to engage in an illegal act to your benefit (ie. distributing). Personally, I prefer to do neither.

And that's about all I'm going to say. This is a tired old horse and I'm tired of beating it.

joe b.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

How many of you have had to rebuy PDFs? Today I was looking for a PDF I know I bought, and it doesn't seem to be on my hard drive or any of the CDs I burned. I did a clean-up of my hard drive not too long ago (it's my work computer, so I can't keep stuff like this around too long), and I fear I was a bonehead and deleted it. It's not that big of deal, since it was only $5-6 to begin with, but still, what a drag.

Well, you could always check with a member of your gaming group to see if he also purchased this PDF, and who, trusting in your good faith, would be willing to burn you a copy on CD....

 

[WizarDru]

It may be legal for you to download it in Finland, but you're encouraging another person to engage in an illegal act to your benefit (ie. distributing). Personally, I prefer to do neither.

And that's about all I'm going to say. This is a tired old horse and I'm tired of beating it.

joe b.

Well, allow me to take this opportunity to ask about your next release, as in "When is your next release due out?" I remember seeing a blurb that the print version would be released three weeks after the PDF, but didn't remember seeing a date associated with either.


We've all been down this road plenty of times before, so I'll just add one further idea: if you get a PDF version through Kazaa, even if you already own it in print, the publisher is potentially losing money...because now they can't sell you an electronic version themselves. Plenty of folks would like a quality transferred version of some print materials, and would pay for same (as the demand for WotC's ESD stuff showed).

As a side note, my biggest complaint about PDFs is when authors don't bother to use indexes or bookmarks. Please, please, please don't bother using PDFs unless you're going to take advantage of the format, for pity's sake. It's not like we're talking about a herculean task, after all.

 

[Psion]

Any new PDFs I get are added to a CD archive. Not only great for backup purposes, but for portability purposes.

 

[jgbrowning]

Well, allow me to take this opportunity to ask about your next release, as in "When is your next release due out?" I remember seeing a blurb that the print version would be released three weeks after the PDF, but didn't remember seeing a date associated with either.

We're working on a spring late spring release. The PDF will be out after we sent the book off to print so that's probably about three weeks before it hits the shelves. It's called A Magical Society: Ecology and Culture. It'll show how to make believable world maps, explain ecology so that DMs can make cool stuff, and explain how cultures tend to adapt to their environment so DMs can, again, make some cool stuff. We're about 40 or so pages into writing it.

We'll actually have a real press release and more in depth info when we've finished a bit more of the text. Seeing as it's still about 5-6 months away, we're not going to gear up the propagada machine until December.

joe b.

 

[eris404]

Did you clear out the recycle bin too?

Yes, I clear out the recycle bin and temp files obessively, because it's my work computer and although my boss probably wouldn't care, I don't want to find out one way or the other.

The good news is that I am a bonehead in a completely different way.: I did find the PDF, just tucked away in a different folder than I normally keep these things. I never even had to test whether the company would send me another copy or not, which is just fine by me. The PDF is now securely on a CD by itself - normally I'd wait until I have a bunch of stuff to burn all ay once, but I'm not taking any chances.