An Obsolete Rogue

[Tequila Sunrise]

I'm considering removing the rogue from the 'necessary 4' of d&d. I've always thought it's pretty bogus that a 1st level rogue is able to deal with magical and DC 20+ traps while other characters just can't. I never like to encourage PCs into the 'well we need X class ability, so one of us will take 1 level of X just to get it.' If rogues are so expert at trapspringing, why can a fighter 19/rogue 1 just as easily disarm a trap as a rogue 20?

Also, what's the deal with mechanical traps? There were never hidden flesh-targeting javelin-launcher wall traps anytime in history, even during the Roman era! Maybe a lot of folks like the Indiana Jones flavor, but when there's fantasy in my game I like to have a magical source somewhere.

So basically: mechanical traps pretty much don't exist (those that do can be found and disabled by anyone with ranks in Search and Disable Device), while magical traps can only be dealt with by casters (as is only reasonable). Hence, rogues become one of the many '5th wheel' classes. Any comments?

 

[Piratecat]

Yes. I play a very successful high-lvl rogue, and traps in the game are almost non-existent. I'm not even sure I have any points in disable device. You may be excessively pigeon-holing them into the "find traps/open locks" role, when they're much, much more than that.

For me, being a rogue is all about sneak attack and being a skill monkey. All those skills mean that you can be a great scout, a charming faceman, a knife in the shadows, a font of knowledge. Even in a game with no traps, I think they have a valuable place in the game.

 

[Nyaricus]

Well, rogues are getting removed in my game, but for a differnt reason - I wanted two classes instead of one

I am making a Thief and a Cut-throat base class, for the "skill monkey" and "killer in the shadows" archetypes. I think rogues have a valued place in D&D - so muhc so I have two instead of one class for them

 

[Bront]

Well, if you feel real strongly about it, you can make Trapfinding a feat (perhaps requring some ranks in Disable Device or Search), but I often play rogues that can't disarm traps well, as their skills make them invaluable in other ways. They work quite well as swashbuckling wariors (at least for Core), are one of the few classes that has Tumble as a class skill, get more skills than any other class, and many useful special abilities. If you only view them for traps, then they're quite limited, but a good rogue can be good at traps without sinking a lot of skill points into it, and there are other potential uses for disable divice as well.

 

[James Heard]

I think my issue is that, like a few of the other classes, I'd likely prefer more core folded back into rogue than removing the rogue entirely. I mean, if I were redesigning the PHB I'd probably toss Rogues and Bards (and possibly half of Rangers) into the same special ability toolset and let people choose from what works for them best. Plus Scouts and Ninja and whatever else fits that doesn't immediately strike my mind - roll them all into a base class with many options each level. I'm all for reducing PrC glut, but alleviating PrCs I think is to make the base classes more...base and customizable, so that PrCs become for specific things that can't be done by multiclassing and core classes at all.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Being a rogue is a lot more than just disarming traps, it like the fighter is a very versatile class that can represent alot of archtypes.

 

[GreatLemur]

To be honest, I find the whole trap focus of the Rogue (and, to a lesser extent, the Barbarian) to be pretty irrelevant. They're clearly a holdover from the dungeoncrawl-heavy campaign mentality, and just not really of much interest to me. Has anybody heard of variant classes that replace trapfinding and trap sense with something else?

I mean, if I were redesigning the PHB I'd probably toss Rogues and Bards (and possibly half of Rangers) into the same special ability toolset and let people choose from what works for them best.

Damned good thinking. Fewer classes with more flexibility would be really, really nice in general. If I had my way, D&D 4.0 would look a hell of a lot like True20.

 

[IndyPendant]

While I do agree with the majority of posters here that rogues are much more than trapmonkeys--keep in mind that it's trapmonkeys that are one of the Big Four, and not necessarily rogues. Most of the OP's issue stemmed from the fact that if you wanted to be the trapmonkey, by core rules you absolutely *HAD* to take at least one level of rogue. He wants to remove the Trapfinding ability entirely (essentially, making it available to all classes)--an idea I wholeheartedly support. I agree with the OP that it is frankly stupid and uselessly restrictive to say that a 20th Wizard with 20 skill points (10 ranks) in Disable Device and an intelligence boosted to godly levels absolutely cannot disarm a magical trap under any circumstances whatsoever--but a Wizard 19/Rogue 1 with 2 ranks could!

Also note that the OP isn't saying "Rogues would then suck"--although I agree that does seem to be hinted at. What he seems to me to be saying--and if so he is largely right--is that if traps were removed from a campaign entirely (or severely limited), then the rogue becomes relegated to the position of bards, druids, archers, etc; a good class to have in a party, and definitely not wimpy! --But you need to make sure the (now) Big Three slots of Tank, Healer, and Blaster are covered first. Hence relegating rogues to the 5th-wheel status. Which I also agree with--and think is a good thing! It just means rogues would be taken by (gasp!) players that actually *wanted* to play them for their huge skill list and sneak attacks, rather than *having* to play one because "the party needs a trapmonkey".

The change is all good, a win-win scenario, imo.

Edit: Helps if I use the correct names for the skills!

 

[Machiavelli]

Has anybody heard of variant classes that replace trapfinding and trap sense with something else?

I've got a simple variant that I call my "smalltown rogue" variant:
Remove Abilities:
-Trapfinding @ lvl1
-Trap Sense +1 @ every 3rd lvl
Add:
-Dodge @ lvl1
-Initiative +1 @ every 3rd lvl

Remove class skills:
-Appraise
-Decipher Script
-Forgery
-Open Lock
-Sleight of Hand
Add:
-Handle Animal
-Heal
-Knowledge (nature)
-Ride
-Survival

It's for rogues who DIDN'T grow up in a dungeon and DIDN'T make a career out of being Indiana Jones' sidekick.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Also note that the OP isn't saying "Rogues would then suck"--although I agree that does seem to be hinted at. What he seems to me to be saying--and if so he is largely right--is that if traps were removed from a campaign entirely (or severely limited), then the rogue becomes relegated to the position of bards, druids, archers, etc; a good class to have in a party, and definitely not wimpy! --But you need to make sure the (now) Big Three slots of Tank, Healer, and Blaster are covered first. Hence relegating rogues to the 5th-wheel status. Which I also agree with--and think is a good thing! It just means rogues would be taken by (gasp!) players that actually *wanted* to play them for their huge skill list and sneak attacks, rather than *having* to play one because "the party needs a trapmonkey".

You hit the nail right on the head!