An Open Letter to Planewalker Regarding so-called Prestige Races

Hardhead

Explorer
I'm writing this because I've read the preview chapter for races on Planewalker.com (http://www.planewalker.com/index.php?secID=14&subID=15).

The idea for these were originally put forward in Dragon #304, in an article written by Brannon Hollingsworth, the maintainer of Planewalker.com.

The basic idea is that you can spend XP to gain an ability. For example:

Scavenging Creature
Cost: 3,500 XP
Minimum Level: 4th
Prerequisite: None
Unavailable to: None
Details: The eyes of the creature become oversized, dominating much of their face.
Game Effects: Gain darkvision to 60 feet. If the creature already possesses darkvision, its range is extended 30 feet. Also gain a +10 racial bonus to Search checks.

More powerful ones cost more XP.

You go to a "focus point" like the Spire, spend 3500 XP and presto, you gain Darkvission. Now, besides the fact that 3500 XP is probably too cheap for such a great ability (every character higher than 12th or 13th, to whom this amount is a pittiance, would should take it)[1]. It's just a bad system.

It was a bad idea in Oathbound. It's was a bad idea in Dragon. It's still a bad idea.

First, from a sementics perspective, it sounds like you're talking about a prestige class for races, which were introduced in Unearthed Arcana (and Arcana Unearthed). That's not that big a deal, though.

Mainly, it's the fact that it's similar to the Item Creation feats (you pay XP to get abilities), but you don't have to spend a feat for it, the item can never be taken away, and if the DM wants to come up with some of his own, he just has to guesetimate how much XP it should cost (which looks like what was done on a lot of the "prestige racial powers," hereafter PRPs, listed).

Secondly, there's no CR modifier, often because one individual power isn't enough to bump a CR up. But they form chains, with increasingly better powers. Theoretically, I could put them all on one creature, making him much more powerful, but there's no change in the CR.

Thirdly, paying XP for special abiliteis is dumb, when we already have many other mechanics for that in D&D: We have feats, for smaller powers, and levels for abilities that are too powerful to be feats (as part of Prestige classes and Level Adustements). The problem is, XP is a "renewalbe resource," since D&D has a cath-up mechanic for those that fall behind in XP. While if you spend a feat or a level, it's gone forever. Over the course of many adventures, this causes the ability you gained from spending XP to essentially vanish in the D&D catch-up mechanic (when Oathbound was released in 3.0, this wasn't as true, but the 3.5 edition should be taken into account here). This is also a problem with magical item creation, but since they also require you to spend both feat and gold, it's not as big of a deal. With no gold to spend and no feat lost in aquiring PRPs, the problem is magnified.

Lastly, it's not Planescape. These "focus points" did not exist in 2e. You didn't go to a spot, spend xp, and get new abilities. You did get abilites from your belief and philosophy, but that's different. If they were tied to factions, I might be more forgiving, but they aren't. In this way, they undermine the flavor of Planescape. It's one thing to convert things from 2e to 3e (and, you've done a generally good job of that). It's another thing to introduce entirely new core concepts to the settting.

In summary, it wasn't a great mechanic to start with. It was made worse by 3.5, and there are better "pay" mechanics in 3.5 in the form of feats and levels. I know several people on the Planewalker staff like the mechanic, since they had hands in creating it. But keep it where it belongs. It's not Planescape-flavored. I don't want your Oathbound in my Planescape. If you like them so much, put them in a supplement or something. Don't try and change the core setting so much.


1. As a magical item, it would be 40,000 gp magical item, just for the search bonus (bonus squared x 10 then doubled for being a nonstnadard type of bonus then doubled again for not taking up a magical item slot. Oh, and it can't be taken away. Now, add in Goggles of the Night (12,000) plus they don't take up a slot (double them to 24,000) and you've got a 64,000 gold magical item. A caster that had spent a feat and was paying 32,000 gold would still have to spend 2560 XP to make this item... yet everyone gets to make a version of it that can't be stolen, for no gold, with no feat, for just 1,000 xp more???
 
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I'd just like to say that I've had nothing (literally) to do with this chapter (or any of the new Planewalker-released stuff for that matter). I am not even the webmaster of Planewalker.com anymore...

Just FYI.
 

I'd just like to say for the record that I agree with Hardhead here.

It's like someone (and since Brannon denies responsibility, perhaps he would be so kind as to point out the guilty party ;) ) found this shiny bit and decided that it would be cool to shove into Planescape, despite the fact that it has little to nothing to do with Planescape elements.

Please planewalker, scrap this. Heck, even put it on the website somewhere as an extra. But it doesn't fairly belong as a "conversion".
 
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Psion said:
It's like someone found this shiny bit and decided that it would be cool to shove into Planescape, despite the fact that it has little to nothing to do with Planescape elements.

Please planewalker, scrap this. Heck, even put it on the website somewhere as an extra. But it doesn't fairly belong as a "conversion".
I totally agree with this sentiment.
 

Wow. I'm about to start playing in a Planescape campaign, and I was about to recommend Planewalker to the DM as a source of inspiration and 3.5 material. I was, however, going to recommend it blind (foolish, I know), as I've never personally done more than skim through the site.

Suddenly, after reading this, I'm not sure I want to do that anymore. I think we can get by just fine with the flavor text from the Planescape boxed set (fluff never needs converting :)) and the mechanics from Manual of the Planes and the various monster books.
 
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Under normal circumstances (when operating as a business), people are assigned a specific portion of a project with a deadline. There are consequences for not meeting the deadline, and completed work is passed through several other hands to be refined. Bad ideas tend to be weeded out (or at least minimized) because of the extra bodies.

With fan work, though, it's the most industrious people that get their work to print, although the most industrious people are not often the most talented. (I'm not making any slights about specific individuals on the Planewalker project.) The project organizers work with what they get. I'll be the first to admit I didn't contribute overly much to the project, but that's because it evolved in a direction with which I wasn't happy. That's not to say there isn't good stuff there...there are just things I wanted done differently, but I didn't have the final say.

The Planewalker project is a fan work, and you can't treat it as anything else, even though they have a special agreement with Wizards of the Coast and obtained permission from Bastion Press to use the prestige race concept. I can say I remember its inclusion being debated, with the argument being that certain points on each plane were concentrations of power that could physically alter creatures, resulting in aasimars, tieflings, and genasi, as well as lesser alterations (i.e., the prestige races). While the idea has merit and precedent (especially when it comes to the origin of genasi), I don't care with the implementation.

There are other aspects of the conversion with which I'm not happy, but I'm not willing to dismiss the entire work out of hand. There's some good stuff there; you just have to hunt and peck. If the prestige races don't work for you, just ignore them.
 

For the record, I didn't have a thing to do with that chapter. In fact, I didn't have much to do with any of the chapters aside from #7. Be that good or bad, I'm a latecomer to the project and as such I wasn't privy to the earlier discussions regarding the races, and I only listened to some of the debate on the factions, but didn't really contribute there.

As with anything at all, WotC published or not, if you don't care for it, don't use it. There's canon stuff I've abused in games.

*whistles over the graves of Anthraxus and Mydianchlarus*

But what Chris said is certainly true, to a good extent, much of that oversight and multiple levels of proofing isn't going to be there outside of a company environment. Planewalker, whatever the status w/ WotC is, isn't a company gearing to publish anything, just a collection of talented folks both currently and past involved with the project.
 
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Believe me, I'm not one to hold a fan project to professional standards. I fully understand the difference. And I certainlly appreciate anyone who's willing to put the effort into keeping alive what would otherwise be a dead classic setting.

My fear--and I haven't read the site in detail, so I'll be the first to admit that the fear may be unfounded--is that the inclusion of something that I consider so blatantly non-Planescape in what is supposed to be a conversion indicates a deeper rift in opinions. Frankly, if I go looking for a conversion of an old setting to 3.5 rules, I'm looking for something where nothing major except the mechanics have changed. I'm not really interested in a reimagining right now. Sure, down the road, as an option, but first and foremost, the basis of the world should be more or less what I'm familiar with from 1E/2E, with only those changes necessary to make it work with the newer and very different rules set.

If that's not what the consensus of people on Planewalker are shooting for, that's certainly their call. And I exaggerate not in the slightest when I wish them all success. But if Planewalker isn't pretty much a straight conversion of the material, it's not what I, personally, am currently looking for.

I'll know once I have a chance to read the site in more detail, of course. At the moment, this is all purely hypothetical for me. :)

(BTW, on a brief, but vaguely related hijack, anyone know what happened to www.zakhara.com? Is it well and truly gone? And if so, what's the consensus on the best 3E Al-Qadim conversion out there?)
 

well i like it. take darkvision for example, way more expesive to go this route than to just have it cast perminatly. of course this can't be dispelled but is that really worth twice the cost? i also like new things being introduced into settings. as long as they don't turn it on it's ear which i seriously doubt this would do.
just my thoughts
 

Hardhead said:
Mainly, it's the fact that it's similar to the Item Creation feats (you pay XP to get abilities), but you don't have to spend a feat for it, the item can never be taken away, and if the DM wants to come up with some of his own, he just has to guesstimate how much XP it should cost (which looks like what was done on a lot of the "prestige racial powers," hereafter PRPs, listed).


As far as I know, it's false. The feat "Sculpt Self" is a prerequisite for all "prestige races," at least for those in the Dragon issue.

If it's not the case in Planeswalker's thingie, then there's a balance problem.

(By the way, it's true the name is a misnommer. One would rather expect something akin to the bloodline or racial paragon rules from UA.)
 

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