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An undead invasion topples civilization, then what?
- Thread starter Mr. Draco
- Start date
Conanb: I like the idea of Death still walking the world in mortal guise and a showdown with Death being a kind of culminating scene for the campaign. Although I'm not sure just how to stat Death's mortal guise, nor am I sure how he could be beaten. And the mini-bbegs idea is certainly tempting 
Jerichothebard: What's Midnight like? I thought it was more of a campaign setting with no hope for victory (whereas I'd like this one to be "winable" by the PCs). Although I could be far off the mark, I haven't actually read any Midnight stuff, I've just heard fairly vague things about it.
Torm: I'm not too sure about the blotting-out-the-sun idea. I was kinda thinking of the undead armies as a passive sort of force (they're not doing much plotting on their own, and very few intelligent undead exist).
Fieari: I'm glad you like it, and you raise a very interesting question, namely just how Havendash is supposed to repent for the sins. Perhaps Havendash has to "set things right" so to speak. As an example, say person number 1 was a thief, then perhaps Havendash has to find/obtain morally/recreate the items the thief stole and return them to their rightful owner (or his/her descendants, or whomever would now rightfully own the items in question). Though this method still has the problems of what to do for other sins (i.e.- how do you "set things right" for a murder?)
Darklight: I definately like the idea of PCs spreading word about magic. I'm pretty sure they'll start doing that on their own, but even if they don't, word will get around with the tribes that these people (only one tribe knows they are the heroes from the prophecy, or even about the prophecy for that matter, at the beginning) are doing the impossible, and crowds/diciples will likely gather when they know the PCs are going to be in a place at a given time.
I like the idea of Death and Havendash being the two most powerful entities, and the moral questions involved with helping one against the other. But I'm not so sure about making all remaining people liches, it seems like that would be more of just blantantly defying Death's will for the sake of defying Death's will. Likewise, I'm not sure if Death is merely after Havendash's life (or rather un-life). I think from Death's point of view, thie is all about teaching the mortals a lesson alongside punishing Havendash. Perhaps Death is also after the PCs to a degree once he discovers that they've been ressurected? After all, they are then still guilty of circumventing his power. Or were they even supposed to die at Ironwall? Perhaps in the grand cosmic scheme of things Havendash was supposed to give up his sould a thousand years ago, and that would mean that the PCs (along with everyone else) were killed and are in the afterlife, but still haven't lived out their full, alotted, lives. That would put a second side to the Death issue, perhaps he has to take people when their time is up, but he isn't supposed to take them before their time is up. That gives me images of the PCs ressurecting all of those who've died because of Death's armies as a sort of apocalyptic battle between the forces of life and death to drive off Death. Although the idea of convincing Havendash do give up his unlife, or, more likely, finding a way for him to lift his curse, and then convincing him to give up his unlife has an appeal of its own as well.
Elder-Basilisk: Now I LIKE the idea of the undead armies existing to destroy all that was accomplished through Havendash's power and leadership. Consider that adopted. Perhaps they also serve the purpose of eradicating even Havendash's memory? That would give them a reason to still be around as I'd like to keep them, and Death, in the picture as the main obstacles, but I definately like the idea of Havendash not even being allowed to name himself except as "Death's Doomed Herald" or perhaps the "Doomed Herald" for something a bit shorter. In any case, I'm pretty much set on having the campaign focus around the undead/Death.
Shilsen:
Dogbrain: I'm definately going to go for the Death acting as a neutral force bit. I'm not sure about the idea of intelligent undead setting up "kingdoms" if you will. It sounds interesting, but I'm wary of having it turn into "just another fantasy setting, except the kings are all vampires/ghosts/etc..." I'd like it to have an overall darker, more chaotic, feel to it, rather than the structure that so many smaller "kingdoms" would necessarily have.
As for the Death cults, consider it done Excellent idea.
Sukael: I really like this idea, although I haven't seen the Sandman series. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit?
One thing I haven't decided yet is whether the populace was aware that the Lord Havendash never died. If the populace knew about his deal before Death came back to claim him, that would raise the question of why weren't they worried about it? But, if they didn't, and perhaps they thought that Havendash was long dead (but really he had changed form every 60 years or so to appear slightly different and act as his "successor") how would the survivors have found out about his deal? (because the survivors definately have to know) Perhaps if Havendash was really changing form every 60 years, that would make him a wizard or sorcerror? And after a thousand year reprieve without magic, he's starting to feel his powers returning to him? Perhaps he even found some ways to act indirectly from under his curse to oppose Death's armies?
Jerichothebard: What's Midnight like? I thought it was more of a campaign setting with no hope for victory (whereas I'd like this one to be "winable" by the PCs). Although I could be far off the mark, I haven't actually read any Midnight stuff, I've just heard fairly vague things about it.
Torm: I'm not too sure about the blotting-out-the-sun idea. I was kinda thinking of the undead armies as a passive sort of force (they're not doing much plotting on their own, and very few intelligent undead exist).
Fieari: I'm glad you like it, and you raise a very interesting question, namely just how Havendash is supposed to repent for the sins. Perhaps Havendash has to "set things right" so to speak. As an example, say person number 1 was a thief, then perhaps Havendash has to find/obtain morally/recreate the items the thief stole and return them to their rightful owner (or his/her descendants, or whomever would now rightfully own the items in question). Though this method still has the problems of what to do for other sins (i.e.- how do you "set things right" for a murder?)
Darklight: I definately like the idea of PCs spreading word about magic. I'm pretty sure they'll start doing that on their own, but even if they don't, word will get around with the tribes that these people (only one tribe knows they are the heroes from the prophecy, or even about the prophecy for that matter, at the beginning) are doing the impossible, and crowds/diciples will likely gather when they know the PCs are going to be in a place at a given time.
I like the idea of Death and Havendash being the two most powerful entities, and the moral questions involved with helping one against the other. But I'm not so sure about making all remaining people liches, it seems like that would be more of just blantantly defying Death's will for the sake of defying Death's will. Likewise, I'm not sure if Death is merely after Havendash's life (or rather un-life). I think from Death's point of view, thie is all about teaching the mortals a lesson alongside punishing Havendash. Perhaps Death is also after the PCs to a degree once he discovers that they've been ressurected? After all, they are then still guilty of circumventing his power. Or were they even supposed to die at Ironwall? Perhaps in the grand cosmic scheme of things Havendash was supposed to give up his sould a thousand years ago, and that would mean that the PCs (along with everyone else) were killed and are in the afterlife, but still haven't lived out their full, alotted, lives. That would put a second side to the Death issue, perhaps he has to take people when their time is up, but he isn't supposed to take them before their time is up. That gives me images of the PCs ressurecting all of those who've died because of Death's armies as a sort of apocalyptic battle between the forces of life and death to drive off Death. Although the idea of convincing Havendash do give up his unlife, or, more likely, finding a way for him to lift his curse, and then convincing him to give up his unlife has an appeal of its own as well.
Elder-Basilisk: Now I LIKE the idea of the undead armies existing to destroy all that was accomplished through Havendash's power and leadership. Consider that adopted. Perhaps they also serve the purpose of eradicating even Havendash's memory? That would give them a reason to still be around as I'd like to keep them, and Death, in the picture as the main obstacles, but I definately like the idea of Havendash not even being allowed to name himself except as "Death's Doomed Herald" or perhaps the "Doomed Herald" for something a bit shorter. In any case, I'm pretty much set on having the campaign focus around the undead/Death.
Shilsen:
Dogbrain: I'm definately going to go for the Death acting as a neutral force bit. I'm not sure about the idea of intelligent undead setting up "kingdoms" if you will. It sounds interesting, but I'm wary of having it turn into "just another fantasy setting, except the kings are all vampires/ghosts/etc..." I'd like it to have an overall darker, more chaotic, feel to it, rather than the structure that so many smaller "kingdoms" would necessarily have.
As for the Death cults, consider it done
Excellent idea.Sukael: I really like this idea, although I haven't seen the Sandman series. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit?
One thing I haven't decided yet is whether the populace was aware that the Lord Havendash never died. If the populace knew about his deal before Death came back to claim him, that would raise the question of why weren't they worried about it? But, if they didn't, and perhaps they thought that Havendash was long dead (but really he had changed form every 60 years or so to appear slightly different and act as his "successor") how would the survivors have found out about his deal? (because the survivors definately have to know) Perhaps if Havendash was really changing form every 60 years, that would make him a wizard or sorcerror? And after a thousand year reprieve without magic, he's starting to feel his powers returning to him? Perhaps he even found some ways to act indirectly from under his curse to oppose Death's armies?
Taneel BrightBlade
First Post
have Havendash be an epic blackguard and with the return of his powers he turns half the undead back on Death untel the PCs defeat one or the other. And (for some reason is easier to stop but if they stop him the Havendash tries to regain his throne
and keep immortality and badness happens because the god of death is mad. After they stop Havendash they need to make new sociaties.
and keep immortality and badness happens because the god of death is mad. After they stop Havendash they need to make new sociaties.
Taneel BrightBlade
First Post
right now though have them collect the people and get them to a save place
Humanophile
First Post
Interesting. When I read this, I saw both Death and Havendash both being, at heart, LN types. Goes to show how different first-reads give rise to different ideas on the subject.
The one advantage that living armies have over undead ones is that they replinish. I don't see Death as continually rebuilding his armies, so the humans who are able to learn and improvise should have, for the most part, shut down the bulk of killer undead. If you want the undead to replenish, have a few freakish examples retain/gain intelligence, and spellcasting power, to serve as proper undead lords. (You said you didn't want to do this on a large scale, but one or two undead empires could be nice targets without overwhelming the populace; these people are damn well trained against undead, they should be able to take out a skeleton/zombie horde even without magic, so undead kingdoms won't be able to expand too far.)
The "ressurrection without magic" angle strikes me as a little odd, as does the idea that your party is the only group of people who came back. (I'm assuming that they, as heros, have a few levels under their belts. When one dies, I find a non-magically able, non-heroic person reappearing to fill their shoes a little silly. Sure, some exceptional town militia members might exist, but you're boned if you want to play a caster.) It might be interesting to see a few more parties come about, as TPK insurance, and to allow the PC's to interact with their contemporaries and help rebuild that way. You needn't worry about the PC's being overshadowed; one group out of all the ressurrectees might as well be the most powerful, it might as well be the PC's, who end up as leaders, but I'd rather they not have "Protagonist" stamped quite so clearly on their foreheads. That's just my personal taste, though.
And it's probably the Pratchett fan in me, but while I do see Death as the merciless type who would have no qualms killing massive numbers of people to remove the "benefit" of cheating him, I don't see any abject cruelty involved. Killing a universal force should be damned near impossible, and unwise even if doable, so the ultimate resolution should somehow hinge on confronting Havendash. Alternately, Death has done his bit, will only personally intervene if Havendash's curse is lifted (or if he otherwise tries to buck his fate and "rebuild"), and otherwise is leaving the world to clean up and rebuild from devastation. The latter would actually interest me more, as it lets the PC's see tangible signs of their progress in growing communities, infrastructure, and confidence, and gives them a millenia-old lich (and a possibly sympathtic foe, at that) as an endgame antagonist when he tries to buck Death's punishment, risking another wave of ire across the world. (Bonus points if Havendash incognito supports the PC's early on, as he sounds like he has both pragmatic and ego reasons for wanting civilization rebuilt.)
And finally, for Death who seems so wrath-of-heaven omnipotent, we do have to remember that this whole thing started because he was bargained with. The hows and whys of bargaining with Death - both in general and in this specific case - need at least some thinking out. The PC's may need to bargain (or possibly gamble) with Death at some climatic moment, best to have at least the ideas simmering in the back of your head before they become needed.
The one advantage that living armies have over undead ones is that they replinish. I don't see Death as continually rebuilding his armies, so the humans who are able to learn and improvise should have, for the most part, shut down the bulk of killer undead. If you want the undead to replenish, have a few freakish examples retain/gain intelligence, and spellcasting power, to serve as proper undead lords. (You said you didn't want to do this on a large scale, but one or two undead empires could be nice targets without overwhelming the populace; these people are damn well trained against undead, they should be able to take out a skeleton/zombie horde even without magic, so undead kingdoms won't be able to expand too far.)
The "ressurrection without magic" angle strikes me as a little odd, as does the idea that your party is the only group of people who came back. (I'm assuming that they, as heros, have a few levels under their belts. When one dies, I find a non-magically able, non-heroic person reappearing to fill their shoes a little silly. Sure, some exceptional town militia members might exist, but you're boned if you want to play a caster.) It might be interesting to see a few more parties come about, as TPK insurance, and to allow the PC's to interact with their contemporaries and help rebuild that way. You needn't worry about the PC's being overshadowed; one group out of all the ressurrectees might as well be the most powerful, it might as well be the PC's, who end up as leaders, but I'd rather they not have "Protagonist" stamped quite so clearly on their foreheads. That's just my personal taste, though.
And it's probably the Pratchett fan in me, but while I do see Death as the merciless type who would have no qualms killing massive numbers of people to remove the "benefit" of cheating him, I don't see any abject cruelty involved. Killing a universal force should be damned near impossible, and unwise even if doable, so the ultimate resolution should somehow hinge on confronting Havendash. Alternately, Death has done his bit, will only personally intervene if Havendash's curse is lifted (or if he otherwise tries to buck his fate and "rebuild"), and otherwise is leaving the world to clean up and rebuild from devastation. The latter would actually interest me more, as it lets the PC's see tangible signs of their progress in growing communities, infrastructure, and confidence, and gives them a millenia-old lich (and a possibly sympathtic foe, at that) as an endgame antagonist when he tries to buck Death's punishment, risking another wave of ire across the world. (Bonus points if Havendash incognito supports the PC's early on, as he sounds like he has both pragmatic and ego reasons for wanting civilization rebuilt.)
And finally, for Death who seems so wrath-of-heaven omnipotent, we do have to remember that this whole thing started because he was bargained with. The hows and whys of bargaining with Death - both in general and in this specific case - need at least some thinking out. The PC's may need to bargain (or possibly gamble) with Death at some climatic moment, best to have at least the ideas simmering in the back of your head before they become needed.
Oni
First Post
Couple questions.
Why would death want this fellows soul in the first place, why would he make that deal to grant him 10000 years to begin with?
Are there no other powerful entities in the world? Do they not have any oppinions about death destroying so much, much that is likely their own work, at least partially?
Why would death want this fellows soul in the first place, why would he make that deal to grant him 10000 years to begin with?
Are there no other powerful entities in the world? Do they not have any oppinions about death destroying so much, much that is likely their own work, at least partially?
The Mad Kaiser
First Post
Elder-Basilisk said:
I have to disagree.
It was obviously the pact (and the failure of Lord Havendash to complete the pact) that allowed Death to alter the forces of nature in favor of undeath.
(The only thing I would change about the pact is the price for immortality. Instead of the tired old "soul" trade, Death should have demanded that Lord Havendash must take over as the "New Death" and give Death her freedom.)
Death, having failed to collect on the soul, is permitted to collect that soul by any means necessary, thus she raises the Army of the Dead. Since Lord Havendash cheats Death of her rightfully earned soul, she then is owed a debt by the world, and so Death proceeds to take it out of the world's ass.
I would include some intelligent undead NPCs (ghosts, accidental liches, etc) that want the world back the way it was. "We want to rest, but Death has kept us awake for ten-thousand years." They may not be chummy, but they share the same goals. It might even be fun to allow a dead character.
I would also work up some new diseases (or get a pdf of them) and apply them generously to characters and NPCs. Vermin swarms and giant Vermin would also be a HUGE problem in a world of Deadites.
The influx of Negative Energy might also have some deterious effects on the flora and fauna of the world over 100 centuries. What sort of creatures would evolve on a world of Deadites? Rainbow Happy Monkeys? Sugar Wumpums? I doubt it.
Wars between factions of undead may pick up as they fight over the dwindling food supply (tasty people).
Character Goals/Adventure Ideas: Searching for Ancient Relics, Searching For Survivors, Trying Time Travel, Coping with Weird New Cultures, Skirmishes With Undead Armies, Waking the Sleeping Deity/Dieties, Eating lots of Garlic!
Rl'Halsinor
Explorer
Very neat idea. I wish I could play in your campaign. I think it would be cool to start them off trying to escape from the city. Perhaps you have this planned out but your post wasn't clear. An added twist might be that the people that brought them back think of them as heros but perhaps the PC "heros" aren't as powerful as everybody thinks they are. Should make for some interesting roleplaying. Do they say, "Hey, we've got some levels under our belt but we're every bit as mortal and flawed as you are" OR do they play the part full tilt and not let anyone know that they can be taken out at any time? Maybe, just maybe, they recalled the wrong group of heros??? 
There were other heroes present that night - they're the ones that should have been brought back! Okay, just my 2 cents worth.
I do have a question as to what were all these undead doing all these years besides trying to eliminate any bands of the living remnant?
There were other heroes present that night - they're the ones that should have been brought back! Okay, just my 2 cents worth. I do have a question as to what were all these undead doing all these years besides trying to eliminate any bands of the living remnant?
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Sounds cool!
You might want to take a look at Larry Niven's books The Magic Goes Away, The Magic May Return, and The Burning City. As you may guess from the titles of the first 2, the world loses magic, then it returns.
There is also a Terminator-esque feel to it- except subbing the Undead for robots. Those movies may give you some ideas...perhaps the party will eventually be strong enough to go back in time and prevent Lord Havendash from making his deal...or breaking it. Of course, if you go that route, it should be VERY late in the campaign.
Another movie that might help you is Omega Man, with James Caan. In it, James believes for a long time that he is the last man on Earth, fighting genetic mutants in a post-apocalyptic world. He's wrong, and eventually discovers this. There is also a graphic novel that has a similar setup, except with vampires- I think it was called Legion, but I could be wrong.
You might also take a look at Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms. In it, all of Mexico and much of Central and South America are ruled by a vast empire of the undead.
You might want to take a look at Larry Niven's books The Magic Goes Away, The Magic May Return, and The Burning City. As you may guess from the titles of the first 2, the world loses magic, then it returns.
There is also a Terminator-esque feel to it- except subbing the Undead for robots. Those movies may give you some ideas...perhaps the party will eventually be strong enough to go back in time and prevent Lord Havendash from making his deal...or breaking it. Of course, if you go that route, it should be VERY late in the campaign.
Another movie that might help you is Omega Man, with James Caan. In it, James believes for a long time that he is the last man on Earth, fighting genetic mutants in a post-apocalyptic world. He's wrong, and eventually discovers this. There is also a graphic novel that has a similar setup, except with vampires- I think it was called Legion, but I could be wrong.
You might also take a look at Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms. In it, all of Mexico and much of Central and South America are ruled by a vast empire of the undead.
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