And his words were as honey...

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Manipulative
You strategically plan every word and say just the right thing.
Prerequisites: Int 13
Benefit: You use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks. All charisma-based skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.

-=-=-=-=-

Golden Tongue
You possess great wit as well as charm.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Manipulative
Benefit: You add your intelligence modifier and charisma modifier to charisma-based skill checks.

 

[Yair]

Manipulative
You strategically plan every word and say just the right thing.
Prerequisites: Int 13
Benefit: You use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks. All charisma-based skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.

Interesting. I like the idea of switching to Intelligence with a feat. As a matter of fact, I think this alone is worth a feat though. Compare this to, say, the Persuasive feat - with the right imbalance, a +2 to two skills would be far outshined by a switch to +Charisma Modifier for seven skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device).

I'm concerned that the cross-class limitation won't matter, as a character taking this feat will too often be one in which the maximum number of ranks is that of a class-skill (by piling on a level of Rogue, say). And the decrease in cost of all Charisma-based skills is subtantive.

I suggest limiting the change to social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate), and to make a second feat to make these cost 1 skill point per rank (this too may be too good, but hey).

Golden Tongue
You possess great wit as well as charm.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Manipulative
Benefit: You add your intelligence modifier and charisma modifier to charisma-based skill checks.

Again, I'd reckon this unbalanced. I'm not a big fan at all of allowing two ability modifiers to influence a single statistic. At high levels, this can get out of hand very much. I think the standard skill-boosting feats should be adhered to.

 

[Tonguez]

These are cool but I agree with Yair that they are powerful so heres a revision

Manipulative
You strategically plan every word and say just the right thing.
Prerequisites: Int 13
Benefit: You use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks.
-=-=-=-=-

Charming
You are very charm and gracious in your interactions with others.
Prerequisites: Cha 13
Benefit: All charisma-based skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.

Golden Tongue
You possess great wit as well as charm.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Manipulative, Charming
Benefit: You add your intelligence modifier and charisma modifier to charisma-based skill checks.

 

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Um, guys, better check out Able Learner from Races of Destiny. It allows you to have ALL skills only cost 1 point.

Also, compared to... Leap of the Heavens and Nymph's Kiss is it really that overpowered?

 

[Piratecat]

Also, compared to... Leap of the Heavens and Nymph's Kiss is it really that overpowered?

I'd say yes. That's because social skills can be much more important in an adventure's resolution than a jump check, and because I refuse to use a controversially "broken" feat from the BoEM as a baseline feat for comparison.

I'd probably allow "Able Learner" instead of "Charming," but I think "Manipulative" as originally written is too strong. It's a no-brainer for anyone with high int.

 

[Tonguez]

Yes use Able Learner instead of Charming

 

[Rystil Arden]

I'd say yes. That's because social skills can be much more important in an adventure's resolution than a jump check, and because I refuse to use a controversially "broken" feat from the BoEM as a baseline feat for comparison.

I'd probably allow "Able Learner" instead of "Charming," but I think "Manipulative" as originally written is too strong. It's a no-brainer for anyone with high int.

I agree on Manipulative--it allows a social rogue to dump Charisma as low as it will possibly go, use that slack to pump Int up higher, and feel absolutely no repercussions for the lost Charisma, since Int now does everything Charisma would have done and the Charisma penalty disappears.

 

[evilbob]

I disagree with the comments on the 2nd version of Manipulative being still too powerful. All Int-strong classes feel feat-starved at this point, and giving up something like Improved Initiative or Empower Spell for this seems like a fair trade.

 

[Roger]

I started off thinking these were too powerful, but the more I look at them, the more reasonable they seem.

Let's consider the impact by class:

Barbarian: Unlikely, but a weird high-Int build might be possible. He could be really Intimidating, which I can't fault.

Bard: A high-Int bard would have lots of skill points. LOTS. Probably too many to really use effectively, is my sense of it. He still needs a Charisma of 10 + spell level for his spells, so it doesn't entirely become a dump stat. His Bardic Knowledge would be fearsome.

Cleric: Doesn't really benefit much from this. Won't help his Turn Undead abilities, I don't think.

Druid: Not much help here, either. (As an aside, I'm not entirely sure this feat should apply to Handle Animal (Cha), but it's such a minor point that it might not be worth special-casing.) I think it helps his Wild Empathy ("this ability functions just like a Diplomacy check") although some clarification wouldn't hurt.

Fighter: Not much help. Note they're not valid as fighter bonus feats.

Monk: Not much help.

Paladin: Won't help his Divine Grace or his Laying On of Hands. It could help him get the skill points to be really Diplomatic and such, which sounds alright.

Ranger: Might help him get the Whole Lotta Skill Points, but I think there's some diminishing returns in practice. Like the Druid, it may help his Wild Empathy.

Rogue: A Charisma-dumped rogue would be more viable. He'd have a fistful of skill points. Relatively-obscure skills like Forgery might see some purchase.

Sorcerer: He still needs Charisma to qualify to cast his spells, so I'd be surprised if a sorcerer would consider this feat.

Wizard: A wizard could become much more social. And he could bulk up on UMD, which I think has some potential.


In the scheme of the party:

The main talker is still as likely as not to be the bard with his high Charisma score. Without a bard, it might still fall to the high-Charisma sorcerer or paladin.

If the party has none of those classes represented, or they're built to be anti-social, a wizard might be persuaded to spend a precious feat on this. Or he could serve as the backup spokesperson in emergencies. If a party realizes that they really need someone who can talk to other people, they can buy that capability with this, without needed to drastically re-engineer an existing character or bringing in a new character.

A reasonable use might be to build a wizard cohort with this feat. This may let some parties treat chatty encounters as NPC-on-NPC, which I can see as appealing to certain groups.


All in all, I wouldn't hesitate to let one of my players take one or both of these feats if he really wanted to, although I'd be surprised.



Cheers,
Roger

 

[Rystil Arden]

Roger--I think you under-rate the usefulness of this feat for a Rogue in your analysis in the scheme of the party. Let's say we're playing Point Buy. A social Rogue who wants to be really great at Charisma skills and have tons of skill points could purchase 16 Charisma and 16 Int for 20 PB and have a +3 to the skills and 11 (or 12 if human) skill points per level. This leaves 10 PB for physical stats, probably 10 Str, 12 Dex, 12 Con, so then 8 Wis.

With this feat, the Rogue has absolutely no use in the world for Charisma (except as a buffer for Charisma draining attacks). So she puts no points in Charisma leaving it at 8 (the -1 penalty vanishes), and she can either spend 10 points and have 16 Int, with exactly the same effects as above (+3 to Cha skills, 11 or 12 Skill Points per level) and much higher other stats (perhaps Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 10 or Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Wis 8) or have 18 Int, strictly better than 16 Int and Charisma used to be (+4 to Cha skills and 12 or 13 SP/level) and still higher other stats (14 points worth, so maybe Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Wis 8).

In essence, this feat is giving a social rogue playing with point buy a massive bonus to all of their stats (due to the fact that they can dump Charisma completely and act like they didn't).