And his words were as honey...

[Roger]

Well, let's consider this social rogue.

How many social, Charisma skills are there, really?

Bluff, Diplomacy, maybe Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, maybe Perform.

Six skills, more or less. So getting more than six skill points per level doesn't really help him become any more social.

He can afford to dump Charisma entirely and buy up Intelligence, so he may pick up a net +2 or +3 there if he wants, yeah.

Or, as you say, he might diversify out of being a strictly social character.

I guess I don't see that character as being overpowered in most campaigns. If I really really wanted to build the most social rogue I could, yeah, this feat might be a no-brainer. But that in itself isn't unusual or the sign of a broken feat, in my opinion. If I really really want to build a damage-dealing barbarian, there's a very good chance I'll take Power Attack. If I really really want to build a rogue that deals sneak attack damage whenever he can, there's a good chance I'll take Improved Initiative. So it goes.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, let's consider this social rogue.

How many social, Charisma skills are there, really?

Bluff, Diplomacy, maybe Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, maybe Perform.

Six skills, more or less. So getting more than six skill points per level doesn't really help him become any more social.

He can afford to dump Charisma entirely and buy up Intelligence, so he may pick up a net +2 or +3 there if he wants, yeah.

Or, as you say, he might diversify out of being a strictly social character.

I guess I don't see that character as being overpowered in most campaigns. If I really really wanted to build the most social rogue I could, yeah, this feat might be a no-brainer. But that in itself isn't unusual or the sign of a broken feat, in my opinion. If I really really want to build a damage-dealing barbarian, there's a very good chance I'll take Power Attack. If I really really want to build a rogue that deals sneak attack damage whenever he can, there's a good chance I'll take Improved Initiative. So it goes.


Cheers,
Roger

I think it's pretty terrible that if you wanted to build the most social rogue you could, it would involve having 8 Charisma. This is also such a huge gain for the social Rogue who takes the feat (due to the increased stat point buy in every other stat) that the player would have to be foolish not to take the feat--it is basically a no-brainer. And a social Rogue does not focus merely on social skills--the party will probably crucify her if she can't at least search and disable devices (which she'll be able to do even better with the 18 Int), assuming she's the only one with Trapfinding.

This character is an overpowered face--it kicks the bard's heiny at social graces while still having all the other capacities of a combat Rogue who totally dumped Charisma. It's basically "pay one feat, be a social rogue for free".

 

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Well, a query. There is a feat that lets you use your Strength modifier for ranged and throwing. another feat allows you to use your Constitution modifier instead of Wisdom.

A fighter now has no need to ramp up anything but strength and constitution, which is what most do anyways. However, now he can take the role of the dex-monkey archer with a will save of the mage.

Use the right feats and build and I can probably outfight the fighter and outcast the caster at the exact same time.

Yes, if you take certain feats you begin to usurp the roles of others. Isn't that just part of D&D?

I am however open to suggestions for more exacting prerequisites.

 

[Roger]

It's basically "pay one feat, be a social rogue for free".

I'm not really disagreeing with you on this. I just don't think that it's as much of a problem as you apparently do. Which, hey, is fine.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I'd never allow this feat. Charisma is a weak enough ability already, it doesn't need int replacing it too.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, a query. There is a feat that lets you use your Strength modifier for ranged and throwing. another feat allows you to use your Constitution modifier instead of Wisdom.

A fighter now has no need to ramp up anything but strength and constitution, which is what most do anyways. However, now he can take the role of the dex-monkey archer with a will save of the mage.

Use the right feats and build and I can probably outfight the fighter and outcast the caster at the exact same time.

Yes, if you take certain feats you begin to usurp the roles of others. Isn't that just part of D&D?

I am however open to suggestions for more exacting prerequisites.

You have absolutely no case with Dex. It would still apply to Armour Class, Initiative, Reflex Saves, and Dex skills.

As for the Con on Will saves, it has feat prereqs that you typically don't want, so it costs a bit more, and even then, there's still Wis-based skills, including Spot and Listen, oft-regarded as two of the most critical and most-used skills.

The big difference--your feat makes it so there is literally no mechanic or check to make in the entire game that is going to penalise the social Rogue for her negative Charisma mod (unless she's a fool and voluntarily takes some feat that uses Charisma). The only purpose in its existence is to be drained--it would be like having a stat called Null--"Null stat does nothing, but rare attacks can deal damage to your Null stat and if it hits 0, you go into a coma, so the only reason to raise it is to guard against that. Otherwise, it does not affect your character or her life in any way"

 

[Moleculo]

I'd never allow this feat. Charisma is a weak enough ability already, it doesn't need int replacing it too.

I agree; this feat would make Charisma completely useless unless you were a sorcerer or Cleric. Charisma is already a dump stat.

 

[Priest_Sidran]

For one, for every one who is saying that Charisma is a dump stat, multiple other rule tweaks make Charisma an important part of the game, such as Reputation rules and the like.

As for the feats, I like them, and would like to use them in a project I am working on

If thats ok, email me at Sid7e_NB @ myway.com

 

[jasin]

Manipulative
You strategically plan every word and say just the right thing.
Prerequisites: Int 13
Benefit: You use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks.

I have an Int 29, Cha 8 wizard with maxed diplomacy and UMD who would like to subscribe to your newsletter...

 

[James Heard]

What would happen if you made it a focus feat (has to be targeted like Skill Focus and Weapon Focus)? At that point it looks a little underpowered, but for classes that might genuinely benefit from having a little aid for their woefully under-bought charisma scores it would be a good bonus. Likewise, for rogue you wouldn't want to rush off and make CHA a dump stat anymore like people are suggesting.