Andy Collins: "Most Magic Items in D&D Are Awful"

[Nifft]

What's he doing, running credit checks on characters before attacking them?

"Is that Gorgo the Destroyer with one O or two?"

That would make an excellent Loremaster spell.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mallus]

...for creating a high level NPC, as a rough guide.

It is. But if people stopped pretending that 'wealth by level' is something that its not then there wouldn't be anything to talk about in this thread.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It is. But if people stopped pretending that 'wealth by level' is something that its not then there wouldn't be anything to talk about in this thread.

There's actually two different wealth-by-level tables. One for the NPC's. One for the PC's.

So

 

[S'mon]

Hey, S'mon, guess what?

ACHILLES DIED.

HAW HAW!

That'll teach him to mess with War-1s carrying Tanglefoot bags, eh?

 

[S'mon]

Just one of the many things I ignore from the 3e DMG.

Probably a smart move. The game seemed to work better when the GM just placed MI, and you had Fighter-8s carrying vorpal swords. The balanced approach of 3e seems to make spellcasters far more powerful than warrior types for some reason, I guess the Collinsian analysis would be that Fighter gear is too expensive.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The balanced approach of 3e seems to make spellcasters far more powerful than warrior types for some reason, I guess the Collinsian analysis would be that Fighter gear is too expensive.

I'm not sure if you notice that the spellcasters are only more powerful than warrior types if you don't allow warrior types to get the phatty lewt they need to swing and beat stuff up and protect themselves.

 

[S'mon]

I wouldnt play if I were invited. Life is too short for crappy games. Also, its moot, not mute.

Well my example with the +1 sword would only be relevant IMC in roughly the 3rd-5th level range, by 6th or so you hopefully have +2 gear. I'm not a big fan of zero-item games, I like MI, I just don't like how in 3e I hand out some cool powerful item and the PCs always sell it for lots of little boring items.

 

[Seeten]

I don't think that that follows from what I wrote. I assume that all players, bad roleplayers and good ones, want better AC and better weapons and better saves. Naturally, you want things that increase your players survivability. What I'm pointing out as annoying to me is the demand that they recieve these things (and exactly these things), else they just aren't going to play.

I'm suggesting that not every DM is some "Master of Balance" and that they ignore the fact that CR's assume these things willy nilly, and continue throwing the same challenges at their party whether the level 12 barbarian has a Cloak of Resistance +5 or 23 Murlynd's Spoons.

For example, I'd have absolutely no problem with a DM that made magic hideously rare, so much so that a 12th level character prized his ring of +2 bonus to stealth and masterwork battleaxe. That's perfectly sane and interesting as far as I'm concerned, so long as the DM also understands that the longer such a campaign goes on, the more that it will lag magic heavy campaigns in the challenges it can cope with. But, there is nothing at all inherently wrong with not getting magic items and having to solve problems with ropes, 10' poles, small sacks, lock picks, spikes, hammers, a trusty battleaxe and your wits.

Thats perfectly sane and interesting if he tells me its a low-magic game from day 1, so I know to play a character thats fun in a low magic game. Do I want to be a fighter in a low magic game? No. I'd rather chew off my own face, thanks, since being a fighter in a low magic game means being awful.

And until you are forced to fight one with little more than rusty pipe, you aren't really forced to think outside the box either. It's not incumbant on the DM to give you the tools you want to have to win the challenge. It's only incumbant on the DM to give you the tools that you need to win the challenge.

Oh, but as we know, not all DM's are the "Masters of Balance" and so they just open the MM and throw random CR 12 monster at the party, regardless. What, the Petrify effect is a DC 20 save and your saves are +2, +1 and +2 and the magic items in the group are 3 helms of underwater action and a folding boat, and we're in a desert? Sorry, I rolled it on the random encounter table.

Your complaints are directed toward entirely the wrong problem. The problem here is not that the DM decided to deprive you of magic Wal-Marts, and your prized 'big six'. It's that he presented you with a challenge that he also didn't equip you to handle. This is a problem whether or not the DM has magic Wal-Marts or hands out the 'big six' like candy. Magic Wal-Marts do not gaurantee balanced and appropriate challenges. The CR system doesn't guarantee balanced and appropriate challenges. Only a DM can do that. True, the RAW and guidelines encourage balanced an appropriate challenges and an inexperienced DM may be doing well to stick by them until he learns thier deficiencies and how to game them, and what exactly those CR numbers assume, but at no point is the problem the DM departing from the assumptions of the rules. The problem is, whether the DM stuck to the guidelines or didn't, poor DM judgment.

The complaint is that many DM's just play the game, and assume balance is there, or good tactics will out, or any number of other poorly constructed arguments I can think of, and have NO CLUE how it all fits together. They therefore not only close off the Wal-Marts, they think they are having an "Oh so cool" stingy low magic game, but find it perfectly acceptable to throw pit fiends at the party with ac 14 and a masterwork greataxe at level 12. Then its a tpk, and they just dont know why.

Well, I know why. I understand why. And for everyone on here who claims he's a tactical genius, who sends just the right challenge at everyone, despite mucking with magic item balance, and probably every other balance 2, I bet %50 kill players all the time because they had to draw their Guisarme +1 to fight the demon, while having Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Weapon Specialization: Greataxe, and Improved Critical: Greataxe. Or like my barbarian, who died to the demon without so much as a dagger +1.

 

[BryonD]

I guess for me the only important question is, "How much underwater action am I planning for their future adventures?" (or as a variation, "How much underwater action am Iwill to provide the group if they decide that the helm is a good reason to do some acquatic adventuring?")

That is what determines how valuable the helm is compared to anything else they might have for me - as that is determining how practically valuable it is to them.

Come on now.....

Being picky about the specific example has nothing to do with the point.
I clearly specified that the guidelines could be ignored at will to better the game. And a game with a great amount of underwater activity or none at all would clearly qualify in this specific case. It seems to me it is quite simple to imagine a standard level of usefulness of whatever item you are considering and quickly scale to the game you have in mind.

But that has nothing to do with the point.

 

[Gooba42]

That's great if you've got gobs of free time to come up with your own soulmelds, vestiges, etc. Knock yourself out. There are a lot of us DM's that barley have time to read an adventure once during the week before the weekly game. If I have to do the work to create all of this stuff, it isn't going to happen, because the time simply isn't there. Thankfully, WotC's done enough of the work for us so we can get by. There's still nothing to stop you from making your own custom material if you have the time, creativity, and energy.

I didn't say they should stop publishing items for individuals in your situation. I'd just like to see a separation between the mechanics and the canonical items. Players use, and expect, the big 6 items in every game because they're in every book. It's also not like there wouldn't be anyone stepping in to publish all the items you'd care to buy.

No one expects you to spend more time or thought on your game than you do now.