D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

Aldarc

Legend
As if these YouTubers are the only people of Asian descent who have voiced opposition to the content of OA... 🙄 I suppose it’s easier to dismiss contrary opinions when you ignore DECADES of dissenting, critical voices.

And I suppose if just one YouTuber of Asian descent praised OA as a non-problematic book in a five minute video, I suspect it would be hailed as authoritative evidence that OA is not racist.
 

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Sadras

Legend
As if these YouTubers are the only people of Asian descent who have voiced opposition to the content of OA... 🙄 I suppose it’s easier to dismiss contrary opinions when you ignore DECADES of dissenting, critical voices.

And I suppose if just one YouTuber of Asian descent praised OA as a non-problematic book in a five minute video, I suspect it would be hailed as authoritative evidence that OA is not racist.

So no real answer just more rhetoric.
 


Immeril

Explorer
As if these YouTubers are the only people of Asian descent who have voiced opposition to the content of OA... 🙄 I suppose it’s easier to dismiss contrary opinions when you ignore DECADES of dissenting, critical voices.

And I suppose if just one YouTuber of Asian descent praised OA as a non-problematic book in a five minute video, I suspect it would be hailed as authoritative evidence that OA is not racist.

I suppose it's easier to whine about a 35 year old book for 26 hours straight and how WotC is still profiting from it (seriously?! How many people are still playing 1e?) instead of, I don't know, giving WotC a list of suggestions with which to create a non-offensive 5e successor.
 



Are you in favor of the removal (ban) of HP Lovecraft? Conan stories? Tolkien? Star Trek, TOS (which models imperialism)?

I think there's some muddled thinking here Snarf, that I'm slightly surprised to see from you!

Lovecraft and Howard are out of copyright. There is no possibility of them being "removed from sale", because you can just download them, and they're historical artifacts at this point. Further, Lovecraft has rather been reclaimed in quite a cool way by minority artists, often from the very minorities who he treated as so alien and subhuman and so on, because I think in part there's a peculiar innocence and almost a lack of normal malice to his pretty extreme racism, and because what he wrote was sufficiently bizarre and peculiarly inspiring that it still had value.

You say "when people realize", but people realized long, long ago. Lovecraft Country is a TV show premiering next month, with a black showrunner and black central characters, about racism in the South, but also about the Cthulhu mythos.

So you can stop worrying about Lovecraft. People read it with a critical eye, and even actual racists find it's racism so odd that I doubt they get many thrills from it. Especially when, say, Lovecraft is painting the Scots and the Irish as drunken heathen degenerates with subhuman levels of intelligence. I know that even reading it as a kid in say, 1990, the racism was more mind-boggling than anything else. This made it very distinct from a lot of other stuff written in the 1920s-1950s where the racism seemed more malicious and sneering, and usually had a "superior" white man in some way lording it over darker-skinned people (who were discussed in less bizarre but somehow more nasty terms).

Conan is not terribly popular today and tends to be seen as a historical artifact. Plus Howard upbraided Lovecraft for being super-racist in at least a couple of letters, which plays well for Howard being an artifact of his time and not particularly extra-racist. The racism in his work is certainly not remarkable, nor does it seem to paint everyone with dark skin as inferior or dangerous or the like (exotic, sure).

TOS weakens your argument, because any fule kno it was progressive as heck for the time, and it's depictions of "imperialism" as you put it are mild as all-get-out, and further, completely obliterated by TNG and the stressing of the Prime Directive and the general open-minded curiousity and friendliness of TNG. Plus TNG has its widely-condemned super-racist second episode for everyone to talk about (even the cast condemned it, and way before it was cool to do so).

It seems like the only one which aligns at all is Tolkien. Tolkien does contain problematic and somewhat remarkable racism (in that, literally all the dark-skinned people in LotR are baddies, entire races of them are baddies, and so on). Tolkien, is still, I believe, in copyright, and still profited from and has made tons of money. However, as you probably not aware, because hardly anyone is, most of this profit goes into the rather secretive/quiet Tolkien Trust (which holds the copyrights/royalties). A charity trust which then redistributes large amounts of money to other charitable causes, all of them ones which the broad left and most of the right will approve of. Charities often aren't allowed to say that they got money from Tolkien in public (some are), hilariously, but if you're involved with charities in the UK this is a big deal (and some other parts of the world too). If a big backlash against Tolkien's brief-but-definitely-racist stuff came out I suspect they might become a bit less secretive and point out how the money has been used.

I also can't help but notice all your examples are from the 1960s and earlier, whereas OA is from the mid 1980s. I don't really agree with Kwan that it should be removed from sale and not even given away free, but I do think it is reasonable to point out that if you profit from something like that, whilst claiming to be progressive, that is kind of a bit much. I would suggest making it simply donate 100% of the cost to anti-racism charities focused on anti-Asian racism, and adding a health warning to it's DM's Guild page (if it doesn't have one already).
 

giving WotC a list of suggestions with which to create a non-offensive 5e successor.

Why should OA have a "5E successor" at all? I mean, serious question? That seems like a weird suggestion.

It seems like address the points the OP made would be much more valuable than trying to create an "unoffensive" version of something that's a dubious concept to start with.
 

Sadras

Legend
Real answer to what? Your loaded presentation of three various arguments? How does that entitle a real answer?

Edit: I would suggest attempting to understand and present the dissenting voices with greater fairness and good faith of you expect people to treat what you are saying as insightful.

I presented the arguments in the way that I see them. The circular tangents are really not that important. That is where we are whether you like to admit it or not. I have even been so kind as to not question the justifications for the offense which are by many accounts ridiculous, and have accepted them at face value. (Seriously Kwan goes on forever about comeliness, chop sticks and proficiencies).

EDIT: Rephrase the arguments if you must to something acceptable to you.
 
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Immeril

Explorer
Why should OA have a "5E successor" at all? I mean, serious question? That seems like a weird suggestion.

It seems like address the points the OP made would be much more valuable than trying to create an "unoffensive" version of something that's a dubious concept to start with.
What's wrong with WotC doing a sourcebook in the style of Islands of Sina Una?
 

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