D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Bedrockgames]

Are they the target audience? See above.

They could be an untapped market. And I am just following the logic of what you and Hussar are saying.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Yes, it’s a culture, a common ground, a frame of reference. It’s not a hive mind.

Except when you ask people about and have deep conversions that frame of mind, answers vary extensively. Likewise, differences in cultures also break down.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think that is for every publisher to decide for themselves. As mentioned above, D&D made the choice to rename a lot of the demons and devils and to remove a lot of satanic imagery. And I think they made the right call.

I agree with you that it is up to every publisher. My issue is when this becomes the norm of a large number of publishers, it impacts the quality of the content we have. In this discussion people seem to be at a point where they are asking for tighter restrictions.

I disagree that removing the 'satanic' imagery was a good idea. I do think some interesting things were done flavor-wise in 2E, but overall, I think the loss of that stuff and the loss of the rougher edges in general was not good for the books (in terms of flavor). Demons aside the loss of rough edges really made the books less interesting in my view. Just look at the 1E DMG and compare that to the 2E or 3E one. I've never had any desire to go back to the 2E or 3E DMGs. They are quite dry. The 1E DMG is quirky, filled with personality and just an interesting and curious book. It is a lot fun to read through it even all these years later, because you are getting the full expression of its author (the good, the bad and the in between)

 

[Imaculata]

If I not persuaded you, then I have not persuaded you. But I do think my argument holds water. You are making a market based argument for censoring content. You are saying that this is a commercial product and sales matter more than the personal vision or concerns of the creator.

No, but I do believe some parts of that artistic vision sometimes need to be adjusted in order for wider market appeal. I think that is entirely reasonable. The reason you did not persuade me, is because you immediately went to an unrealistic fantasy scenario where WOTC must bow before fanatical religious groups. I think you should root your argument in reality.

I agree with you that it is up to every publisher. My issue is when this becomes the norm of a large number of publishers,

Is that a realistic scenario? Again, please root your arguments in some degree of realism.

you can see how making a free market argument, that doesn't give weight to the value of free expression and the views of the creator, is naturally going to lead to the content being in congress with your political, social and cultural beliefs (I think because at the moment, things in the gaming community tend to reside more on the left, you are under the false impression that this is where following commercial considerations will naturally lead. It won't. The arguments you are making, undermine the overall argument your side on this thread is taking.

I think content creators always need to find a balance between what they keep for artistic reasons, and what they leave out for marketing sensibilities. If we start leaning more towards the right, then our hobby will adjust accordingly, and it probably should.

I think a good example is the current racial awareness that dominates our public conscience. It has opened up a debate regarding the language about races in the DMG, and I think that is only a step forward. It has also opened up discussions about 'evil races' in D&D, which I think is a discussion that is long overdue.

I disagree that removing the 'satanic' imagery was a good idea.

Why?

Just look at the 1E DMG and compare that to the 2E or 3E one. I've never had any desire to go back to the 2E or 3E DMGs. They are quite dry. The 1E DMG is quirky, filled with personality and just an interesting and curious book. It is a lot fun to read through it even all these years later, because you are getting the full expression of its author (the good, the bad and the in between)

I strongly disagree, but then again I still play 3E to this very day. 3E is full of flavor and personality... and it has way better art than 1E and 2E too.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Is that a realistic scenario? Again, please root your arguments in some degree of realism.

I do think it is becoming a very realistic scenario, which is why I am commenting. There has definitely been a massive shift and narrowing, in my view, of what people expect game books to contain and how many rough edges are tolerated. I don't think this position is at all unrealistic. Could I be wrong or misreading things? Sure, but I have been active in publishing since 2010 and I personally find this the least enjoyable period to be working creatively in.

 

[Imaculata]

I do think it is becoming a very realistic scenario,

Can you provide some examples?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Why?

Because it gave it a little more bite, the flavor was interesting and it referred to things people understood. Also, I think it was done to placate a group, that frankly shouldn't have been placated. I grew up in a very religious area, during the satanic panic. And I remember hearing the arguments and lectures from people (my family was very religious as well and I was not allowed to play D&D for a number of years). What is important to understand though: when my parents allowed me to play D&D again, it wasn't because they had removed the satanic content, it was because my mother realized she was wrong about the issue, and that the games were more beneficial than harmful. I do understand why the change was made. I think it was absolutely the wrong thing to do.

Why do you think it was good to remove it?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Can you provide some examples?

No, I am not going to call out other publishers. I have stated this before in these threads. I just had a private conversation about this the other day, and it was very easy to list off examples. But I am not doing that here.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think content creators always need to find a balance between what they keep for artistic reasons, and what they leave out for marketing sensibilities. If we start leaning more towards the right, then our hobby will adjust accordingly, and it probably should.

This seems awful to me. So if the country moves to a political position, the writers, artists, game designers, they should all shift with those winds? I don't think so. I am not saying everyone has to be left, or everyone needs to be right. But I don't want people basically being dishonest in their work, in order to appease crowds for commercial reasons. Especially if that involves staking out political positions one disagrees with.

 

[Imaculata]

Why do you think it was good to remove it?

Because there are still people who hold the view that D&D is harmful, and those groups can no longer point their finger at a picture of Lucifer in a D&D book and use that for ammunition. Plus, I also think our hobby of fantasy roleplaying benefits from not dabbling in any real world religion. It should stay clear of real world beliefs in my view, in order to be firmly rooted in fantasy, and to be accessible to more people (such as Christians).

This seems awful to me. So if the country moves to a political position, the writers, artists, game designers, they should all shift with those winds? I don't think so. I am not saying everyone has to be left, or everyone needs to be right. But I don't want people basically being dishonest in their work, in order to appease crowds for commercial reasons. Especially if that involves staking out political positions one disagrees with.

Popular culture changes constantly according to the current political climate. This is not a new thing.

If for example more black representation becomes popular in our culture (and I do think we are seeing a healthy wave of this), then D&D would do well to follow that trend. Hollywood gets it. More female leads and more black leads in Hollywood movies. As our culture changes, our hobbies should too.