D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Umbran]

I'm not religious myself, but I can totally understand how the inclusion of demons (especially named after those from real world religion), removes the blur between fantasy and reality for some religious folks, and drives them away from the game.

On the flip side, there's been a very popular TV show that was on Fox for three years, but is now on Netflix, titled, "Lucifer". It is about the literal Devil - cast out of Heaven, spent eons in Hell, and then quit Hell and moved to Los Angeles. It is (loosely) based on Lucifer from Gaiman's Sandman comics.

About 165K people signed petitions to have it not air back in the day. But, it averaged millions of viewers per episode.

From which we may surmise - having content that is controversial or offensive to some is not a bar to popular success. That's not a real fear. The central question is about when you choose to use such content, and when you don't.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Editing for quality and editing to eliminate errors, is very different from adding layers of editing for cultural sensitivity. It is even different from say hiring a consultant for accuracy or historical details (I have no problem with doing this). But bringing in advisors to make it so no one is offended? I think that has a number of problems. One, is it will impact the quality of content. You are going to lose personality and flavor in this pursuit (because there are all kinds of things people could potentially be offended by). Two, it really creates a huge barrier to entry. We are normalizing a procedure that will require a panel before you 'speak' as a designer. Maybe that is easy for big companies like WOTC to pull off. That is not easy for smaller companies and for independent designers. And it isn't a particularly good way to communicate.

You have taken this in such a weird direction! Do you honestly think anyone is advocating making sure various RPGs are not offensive to anyone? Obviously someone is going to be offended- I mean, you seem offended just by the idea of taking out offensive material!

This conversation is about making RPGs that are not culturally insensitive; that is, not actively offensive to entire groups of people. It's more than just taking out a dog in a bedroom, it's an attitude and a practice of empathy, of thinking from the perspective of others.

You could (and have been) arguing that this is censorship. I would argue that instead it is responsibility.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

On the flip side, there's been a very popular TV show that was on Fox for three years, but is now on Netflix, titled, "Lucifer". It is about the literal Devil - cast out of Heaven, spent eons in Hell, and then quit Hell and moved to Los Angeles. It is (loosely) based on Lucifer from Gaiman's Sandman comics.

About 165K people signed petitions to have it not air back in the day. But, it averaged millions of viewers per episode.

From which we may surmise - having content that is controversial or offensive to some is not a bar to popular success. That's not a real fear. The central question is about when you choose to use such content, and when you don't.

It might be worth noting that it has moved to a company (Netflix) whose business model is to deliberately court controversy.

Whereas D&D is owned by a toy company whose business model is to be as family friendly as possible.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

On the flip side, there's been a very popular TV show that was on Fox for three years, but is now on Netflix, titled, "Lucifer". It is about the literal Devil - cast out of Heaven, spent eons in Hell, and then quit Hell and moved to Los Angeles. It is (loosely) based on Lucifer from Gaiman's Sandman comics.

About 165K people signed petitions to have it not air back in the day. But, it averaged millions of viewers per episode.

From which we may surmise - having content that is controversial or offensive to some is not a bar to popular success. That's not a real fear. The central question is about when you choose to use such content, and when you don't.

Moreover, even conservative Christians watch it. My wife's mother - the type of woman who prays twice a day with veil over her head and a candle in her hand - has no problems watching the show. She simply concludes that the "real devil" and the "show devil" aren't the same.

 

[Imaculata]

Editing for quality and editing to eliminate errors, is very different from adding layers of editing for cultural sensitivity.

I don't believe it is.

It is even different from say hiring a consultant for accuracy or historical details

I don't believe it is different from this either. In fact, I think checking a book for offensive material (especially in regards to a book like OA) is very similar to checking it for historical inaccuracies. In the case of OA, it may even be one and the same. As @BookTenTiger stated, it is a matter of responsibility.

On the flip side, there's been a very popular TV show that was on Fox for three years, but is now on Netflix, titled, "Lucifer".

But then again, that show is actually about Lucifer as a character. Some amount of controversy was something they intended, by having it be about the literal devil. Whereas the demons in D&D are just more monsters for the players to defeat. They never needed to be demons from real world religion in the first place, and the intention wasn't to offend. OA is similar in that regard. It was never meant to offend anyone, but it did.

 

[BookTenTiger]

On the flip side, there's been a very popular TV show that was on Fox for three years, but is now on Netflix, titled, "Lucifer". It is about the literal Devil - cast out of Heaven, spent eons in Hell, and then quit Hell and moved to Los Angeles. It is (loosely) based on Lucifer from Gaiman's Sandman comics.

About 165K people signed petitions to have it not air back in the day. But, it averaged millions of viewers per episode.

From which we may surmise - having content that is controversial or offensive to some is not a bar to popular success. That's not a real fear. The central question is about when you choose to use such content, and when you don't.

I think this is where intentionality comes in, right?

You look at Lucifer, and I don't think the intent is to offend Christians.

However, if you look at South Park their intent is to offend! (As is the intent of a lot of satire.)

So when we look at works like OA, what is the intention? I don't think the original authors were purposefully offensive. However, reducing many varied, historied cultures to a homogenized package to sell to a Western audience that has historically homogenized and stereotyped those cultures is definitely offensive.

So if the intention was not to be offensive, and the result is offensive, then that's a call to action for the publisher.

 

[Umbran]

It might be worth noting that it has moved to a company (Netflix) whose business model is to deliberately court controversy.

After three years broadcast on Fox. It wasn't like controversy was killing the show. It just slowly dropped in ratings (as most shows do) below the level where a broadcast network thought it was a good investment.

The controversy added since it moved... is the lead actor's butt, which they couldn't show on broadcast.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

After three years broadcast on Fox. It wasn't like controversy was killing the show.

The conservative nature of it's home channel limited what the show could do, initially turning it into a comedy police procedural.

It could be said that those limitations where what was killing it.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This conversation is about making RPGs that are not culturally insensitive; that is, not actively offensive to entire groups of people. It's more than just taking out a dog in a bedroom, it's an attitude and a practice of empathy, of thinking from the perspective of others.

You could (and have been) arguing that this is censorship. I would argue that instead it is responsibility.

My point isn't that we should make actively offensive content, it is that what is offensive isn't a settled matter and it isn't as simple or black and white as a lot of people are making it out to be. There is a whole thread on whether orcs are a racist and colonialist trope that attests to this disagreement. I am also saying, some of the solutions being offered, seem like like they make things worse rather than better. It seems we are moving too far away from valuing free expression, and too far in the direction of being perched and ready to take offense. That is the problem I have with much of this. There are things I would find offensive in a game and not buy them over. But there are also a lot of instances where it feels like folks are overreacting. The satanic panic was an overreaction. I feel like we are in another period of over reaction.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Don't worry too much, maybe there will be a new satanic panic, but not against D&D but maybe other titles, for example White Wolf/Onyx Path (World of Darkness), videogames (Warcraft, Mortal Kombat, Doom Eternal) or against Netflix (chilling adventures of Sabrina, or the dark matter) or comics as Battlepope, Jesus hates zombies, Preacher, American Jesus, Bible Reloaded... And Hasbro has got enough means to find a diplomatic and polite solution explaining D&D also can be Christian (or at least Christian-friendly) fantasy as Narnia or Lord of the Rings.

If I worry more about self-censure is when Maverick (Tom Cruise in Top Gun) doesn't show Taiwanese flag in the jacket any more.

Some Christians may say horrible things about current Disney empire, but I don't remember complains about Hercules cartoon promoting paganism. D&D deities are powerful beings, but they aren't eternal nor infinite. Even D&D causes the opposite effect and the esoterism and pagan culture become "boring", without any piece of exotism, too quotidian, like reading stories from classic mythology.

* I am happy to know the next time WotC publishes something Ixalan they will hire vampires as cultural consultants to avoid negative stereotypes against those f***ing bloodsuckers.

* Paizo's Pathfinder has published a lot of creatures based in Asian myths (and even they are in the SRD)

* You can bet in the end somebody will publish a d20-play-manga for 5th Ed without worring about to be enough politically correct.

* An option may be agremeents with Asian companies for D&D(OA) crossovers with some manga/manwha/manghua franchise.

* Exalted by White Wolf is a good example of "Western wuxia", or even Mortal Kombat in its own way.