D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[BookTenTiger]

Ideally people don't need these kinds of introductions. They should be able to encounter this stuff, see the 1985 copyright date, and understand it was a different time with different sensibilities. I used to read a lot of gothic literature when I was younger, and turn of the century books, and I quickly learned, these were books from different periods with different sensibilities. I was able to navigate that without an introduction. I am not opposed to them putting one up if they want to. I think it would be better if people were simply taught that books from other time periods sometimes have content that might offend us.

I agree that's the ideal, but I don't think it's the reality.

 

[Guest 85555]

What else could a publisher do if they still want to make problematic materials accessible but not necessarily support those old views? Could they donate the profits? Create a suggested reading list? Add an appendix on ways to play the game with am eye towards battling negative stereotypes?

If they donate the profits they won't have incentive to publish the books. I think we are in a very strange place today. I mean, if WOTC publishes an old TSR book, I would never read that as an endorsement of the content. I also don't particularly worry about what WOTC personally believes when I buy their books. I just assume there are lots of people who are involved in D&D who share my views on things, and many with whom I would disagree. I am also not particularly convinced game books need to be morally instructive. I don't come to D&D or any other game hoping to get further guidance on how to treat people, how to avoid negative stereotypes, etc. There are much better places in society to get those things from. A book trying to make money on elves and monsters, probably not the best place for moral instruction.

 

[BookTenTiger]

If they donate the profits they won't have incentive to publish the books. I think we are in a very strange place today. I mean, if WOTC publishes an old TSR book, I would never read that as an endorsement of the content. I also don't particularly worry about what WOTC personally believes when I buy their books. I just assume there are lots of people who are involved in D&D who share my views on things, and many with whom I would disagree. I am also not particularly convinced game books need to be morally instructive. I don't come to D&D or any other game hoping to get further guidance on how to treat people, how to avoid negative stereotypes, etc. There are much better places in society to get those things from. A book trying to make money on elves and monsters, probably not the best place for moral instruction.

So you think the best solution is for WotC (or any other publisher) is to do... nothing? And just hope that the rest of the world will educate people on stereotype threat and racism?

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

I don't see the distinction you are making. "Free expression" means we can insult who we like, as deliberately as we like, we can tell whatever lies we like, and we don't have to apologise to anyone we don't want to.

In which case, there are social consequences for that. At least ideally.

Most of the time, a simple conversation solves the problem. Several years ago I had a neighbor who believed I was a US spy sent to gather intelligence on him and his family. Whenever he would see me, he would dash away and shuffle his daughters in the opposite direction (because all Americans are sex-crazed lunatics). I could easily have been insulted. Instead, I laughed at his behavior. Eventually, I decided enough was enough and introduced myself to his wife. I cornered him in his own kitchen. After a bit of shouting we talked it out. I wouldn't say he's my favorite person in the world, but so far we haven't had any black eyes.

 

[Guest 85555]

So you think the best solution is for WotC (or any other publisher) is to do... nothing? And just hope that the rest of the world will educate people on stereotype threat and racism?

I think people are putting way too much stock in the idea that RPGs are going to change the world. We are talking about a niche hobby. I don't think WOTC doing something will do a whole lot to fight stereotypes. I mean, I grew up on books like OA and that wasn't where racism was coming from (its impact on the culture was quite minimal). There was plenty of racism. Most of it came from people. I am happy to share with you in PM, but getting into in the thread would be a bit of a derailment.

 

[Guest 85555]

I agree that's the ideal, but I don't think it's the reality.

but it is a reality of our own making. I think we really should be striving to get to a place where people don't need the intro. I'm also just not comfortable with ceding that kind of moral authority to WOTC or any other big publisher. Perhaps today they listen to you and say things both of us agree with to guide people. Perhaps tomorrow they advocate terrible things we both disagree with. I don't have faith that a company whose purpose is to make money, should be trusted to take the best moral position on these issues. And I think when we create the expectations that they should function not just as publishers but moral leaders, that creates a culture where companies do become our moral leaders. And I don't think they should be

 

[Umbran]

It could be said that those limitations where what was killing it.

It could be said? "It could be said," is your argument? Argument by insinuative suggestion? That flies with you?

It could be said that lizard aliens from the planet Gorthax ordered it. It could be said that Netflix offered the lead actor his weight in Skittles. Anything could be said. That doesn't make it a supported or reasonable argument.

Fact is, I doubted the police procedural angle, but found it was actually a great thing for the series - it gave the character something to do, a reason and mode of interacting with people, that's pretty required for a TV show, but was unnecessary in the comics.

 

[Guest 85555]

However, I do think it would be responsible for the publisher to add some kind of introduction that specifically addresses the controversial materials. When I bought d20 Conan back in the day, there was an introduction that addressed the fact that the original Conan stories used a lot of racial stereotypes, and though this rule system recreated the books, the players should be aware. This really helped my group and I consider what we were playing in a larger context.

When I was young, I remember reading Lovecraft for the first time. It was very clear to me that the stories had racist language (and in particular, because I am from New England, there was a strain of Boston Yankee style racism, that extended to groups that were not English, like Italians). I would have seen that had there not been an introduction in the text. And if I had been raised with bad ideas about race (thankfully my parents were both very opposed to racism), I doubt an introduction would have changed much. It sounds like you and your friends were probably already in a good place when it comes to how you thought of race and stereotypes. I haven't read the conan intrusion that you have, but I am wondering if you think that it really had that much of an impact.

 

[BookTenTiger]

but it is a reality of our own making. I think we really should be striving to get to a place where people don't need the intro. I'm also just not comfortable with ceding that kind of moral authority to WOTC or any other big publisher. Perhaps today they listen to you and say things both of us agree with to guide people. Perhaps tomorrow they advocate terrible things we both disagree with. I don't have faith that a company whose purpose is to make money, should be trusted to take the best moral position on these issues. And I think when we create the expectations that they should function not just as publishers but moral leaders, that creates a culture where companies do become our moral leaders. And I don't think they should be

I think we both agree that WotC should not produce works that promote harmful stereotypes. Our disagreement seems to be on how active WotC should be in fighting these stereotypes.

In my own view and experiences, racism is like the current of a strong river. Those who do nothing about it are just swept along and continue the problem. To even maintain a neutral stance and stay where you are required fighting against the current.

In my view, racism and white supremacy are so prevalent in every part of our culture that it is the responsibility of every person, be they a publisher or a teacher or a plumber or a parent, to actively fight against them.

In my view, for WotC to do nothing is not only not enough- it's actively harmful.

 

[BookTenTiger]

When I was young, I remember reading Lovecraft for the first time. It was very clear to me that the stories had racist language (and in particular, because I am from New England, there was a strain of Boston Yankee style racism, that extended to groups that were not English, like Italians). I would have seen that had there not been an introduction in the text. And if I had been raised with bad ideas about race (thankfully my parents were both very opposed to racism), I doubt an introduction would have changed much. It sounds like you and your friends were probably already in a good place when it comes to how you thought of race and stereotypes. I haven't read the conan intrusion that you have, but I am wondering if you think that it really had that much of an impact.

I remember the introduction 17 years later, so yes I would say it had an impact.