Anemic Horses

[darkadelphia]

I am not so concerned about what horses can really carry, I'm concerned about the fact that Dragonborn have a hidden disadvantage (which is against the design philosophy of 4e where everything is supposed to be up front). It will likely be a level or two before the PCs can easily afford riding horses and longer before they can afford warhorses. And Rage Drakes? There's no guide on how much they should cost, but non-combatant riding horses cost 75 GP and are level 1, combat-capable warhorses cost 680 gp and are level 3. So, a Rage Drake must cost at least 1,000 gp. Further, Rage Drakes have the same carrying capacity as a riding horse anyway!

I think that all player races should be able to easily get mounts during early heroic tier. Further, I'd prefer for it to be horses, to save the coolness of exotic mounts for paragon tier. It would be one thing if going over load reduced speed by one, but reducing them to slowed is ridiculous. It means the majority of medium sized defender types will be faster on foot once they've accumulated any serious amount of gear.

 

[Staffan]

When you said warhorses cost 680 gp, my first thought was "Hey, I recognize that number." And right, that's the cost of a level 3 item - and a warhorse is a level 3 monster. Funny how that works out.

Given that, I'd put the cost of a rage drake at 1,000 gp.

 

[eamon]

I am not so concerned about what horses can really carry, I'm concerned about the fact that Dragonborn have a hidden disadvantage (which is against the design philosophy of 4e where everything is supposed to be up front). It will likely be a level or two before the PCs can easily afford riding horses and longer before they can afford warhorses. And Rage Drakes? There's no guide on how much they should cost, but non-combatant riding horses cost 75 GP and are level 1, combat-capable warhorses cost 680 gp and are level 3. So, a Rage Drake must cost at least 1,000 gp. Further, Rage Drakes have the same carrying capacity as a riding horse anyway!

As long as the disadvantages are subtle, there's no problem with hidden disadvantages. I'd call it flavor. Seriously, if you demand all races be have no drawbacks beyond the immediately obvious; you might as well demand that all races be identical in all respects beyond what fits on a single page.

A party without an eladrin may find it much more difficult to scale walls and small cliffs. A party without a halfling has no one to squeeze through small holes.

It's a minor problem, I think. I'd propose that you role-play a special breed of horses which the dragonborn have bred over the centuries, with a greater carrying capacity. Increase the price of the mount by a level or two, and by done with it.

 

[frankthedm]

Yeah, RPGs rarely get the right mix of what can't horse do, what can a horse do and what can a horse do and then drop dead. It is a shame, but rarely are there decent rules for riding horses to death . Though the ''spurring rules" for 3E mounts could be really amusing , even though those focused on killing the mount mid combat, rather than through overland movement.

http://www.juliaross.net/horsefax.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/pop_print.shtml?content_type=article&content_type_id=321133

 

[Shabe]

Thinking about it I quite like the fact Dragonborn need to go on very strong warhorses or nothing, I think its quite cool to have these noble big strong warriors walk or travel in the back of the cart for a while at lower levels or maybe even for most of their career.

Of course they could always ride small war elephants or camels who can apparently carry 330lbs quite comfortably and 990 at an extreme seems like quite a lot to me http://www.arab.net/camels/ but they're probably a lot slower

 

[darkadelphia]

The big thing is, it's awfully lousy for the whole party to suffer because of one player's choice of race. A single Dragonborn party member significantly hampers the party's overland mobility from levels 1-5. It's like playing a Dwarf in AD&D when they used to move half as fast as everyone else

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Your weight logic isn't. But I don't argue that a human can easily be over 200#. Heck, I'm over 200#.

And the lightest adult dragonborn weighs in at 220 (as per the DMG) and their weights go up to 320. They may not be 'large' as a specific game term. But they average 100# heavier than a human.

Just out of curiosity, how fast do you move carrying 140 pounds?

sez you. If I can press 175 lbs over my head, but I can't press 300, it's because I don't have enough muscle. And given what I know about muscle and how and why it weighs several times more than fat, needing another 15 lbs. of it to almost double that figure is pretty close to fact (although looking at this chart now, that'd be the jump from 14 to 18). But really, 18 str is about the average for a D&D fighter (I'd say it's 17, honestly). I can't imagine a PC putting a 14 into their main stat anymore.

I honestly don't know how fast I move, but it's not less than half my original speed. But it also hampers my jumping ability a LOT (because I often do jump squats with 135 lbs strapped on and I only get about six inches off the ground) more than what D&D leads you to believe. D&D strength doesn't make any sense, and it really shouldn't, but stronger people weigh more, and that is a fact. That's all I was pointing out.

I'm not 'slapping on an extra hundred pounds of carrying capacity. I'm making a ruling on a fact that is not in the books, based on given information in order to create a ruling that is consistant with the rules as they exist (including the fact that Rage Drakes appear in the Dragonborn encounter and are mounts according to the MM and the fact that horses are not appropriate mounts for dragonborn - as already noted in this thread).

If I need a justification it would be that their different body shape (more squat, lower to the ground and - very importantly - massive legs compared to the legs of a horse) enable them to carry far more weight. (Horses have very thin legs for their size which is why they are so susceptible to leg injuries such as befell Eight Belles.)

"Slapping on extra carrying capacity" is what you proposed.

I hope you can see the difference.

Carl

No, I can't see the difference, because it's the same thing. I suggested slapping on extra capacity for a horse. You suggested slapping on extra capacity for your drake. You want to pretend like you're not slapping it on because you have "reasons" for why it should be a certain way. I do, too. I think a party of PCs should be able to walk into a town and ride away with mounts, and not have to say "aw crap, the dragonborn is too fat to come along" and also not have to say "oh, there just so happens to be a rage drake corralled with all the horses, and for some reason he hasn't devoured every last one of them". We put the dragonborn on a massive clydsedale and called it a day.

You can't just state your opinion and use that for ammunition in an argument. You literally said "If drakes aren't strong enough to carry dragonborn, I will make them that way, because that's what I want". And while that is totally fine (and I even agree with you), that is certainly not a valid argument as to why I can't do the same thing with a horse.

EDIT: You also claim that these things are "facts", which is laughable. It's a fact that horses are not appropriate mounts for dragonborn? Really? No, I don't think so. It's unlikely as written but it's certainly not inappropriate and it's definitely not a fact.

Thinking about it I quite like the fact Dragonborn need to go on very strong warhorses or nothing, I think its quite cool to have these noble big strong warriors walk or travel in the back of the cart for a while at lower levels or maybe even for most of their career.

While I agree with you, that's house rules. Horses can't carry dragonborn unless they are exceptionally small, or unless you as DM increase their carrying capacity (which is what I did). So that's not really a fact, it's just a change.

 

[frankthedm]

The big thing is, it's awfully lousy for the whole party to suffer because of one player's choice of race. A single Dragonborn party member significantly hampers the party's overland mobility from levels 1-5. It's like playing a Dwarf in AD&D when they used to move half as fast as everyone else

And I think it is lousy for those with strengths in the 17+ range to have weights under 200 lbs on their character sheets. Folks that can haul what their STR scores let them do are not light at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_Strongest_Man#Commonly_contested_events

While scaling for race is needed, any medium biped the in the top 1% of strenght scores for it's race SHOULD be a burden for a normal mount.

 

[Slaved]

Having a Riding Moose would solve all of these Problems!

 

[Khime]

Having a Riding Moose would solve all of these Problems!

Be Kareful! Møøse bites Kan be pretty nasti...

A Møøse once bit my sister ...

No realli! She was Karving her initials on the møøse with the sharpened end of an interspace tøøthbrush given her by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and star of many Norwegian møvies: "The Høt Hands of an Oslo Dentist", "Fillings of Passion", "The Huge Mølars of Horst Nordfink".

We apologise for the fault in this reply. Those responsible have been sacked.