Annoyed with Wealth Tables

[AuraSeer]

IMC it's not uncommon for magic items to be destroyed. Our paladin is on his 4th longsword, and nearly lost that one yesterday, to a bunch of giant rust monsters. Each time he's lost a weapon, either we found or bought a replacement soon afterward, or he made do with a lower-powered weapon for a while. He was a little less effective, but not tremendously so.

Maybe we worry about it less because we don't keep track of cash separately. All treasure is owned by the party as a whole, and magic items go to whoever gets the most use out of them. Some characters have more valuable gear than others-- the sorcerer and paladin probably have the most, the monk has very little-- but everyone's effective in combat, and we don't waste time quibbling about how to divide the gold.

 

[Murrdox]

Use your best sense as a DM.

In a lot of ways, Monsters such as Nightshades and Rust Monsters are almost more feared than monsters that do ability damage and level drain.

However, as dasardly as these creatures are, and NPC's with "Improved Sunder" and such... that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. A fighter can always get a new sword, and if that sword was special to him, then that's just incentive for him to seek revenge.

I once put my party in a dungeon with a black pudding and several rust monsters. By the end of the dungeon, 2 characters were using crappy swords that they got off the corpses of a couple of were-rats, and another was wearing a suit of half-plate they happened to come across.

The loot from the cavern proved to re-pay them for their lost items though.

I like loss of equipment. It brings out ingenuity in characters. I once had a group of characters shackled to the wall, and once they broke free, the fighter ripped the chains out of the wall, and was whipping them around as his weapon before they got their equipment back.

Of course, you don't want to do it all the TIME... but don't be afraid to toss in a Rust Monster now and again. Just be sure the characters will have an opportunity to re-arm themselves.

 

[LokiDR]

I think there are a lot of campaign considerations in this too.

If you could build a small shack out of all the +1 weapons you have had over the years, or if you can grap +X equipment at your local shop, sunder away. Just make sure that the PCs will get enough cash to replace it.

IMC, that would be crazy. A +X weapon is hard to get a hold of, so I let PCs burn their own XP. Net result: kinda like infinite shopping power but at a price (I limit XP used this way)

If you don't do either, you should think long and hard about destroying magic items. If that character had to pine for 6 adventures just to get a cool sword, and you blew it up 2 adventures later, now they have to wait 6 more adventures, they have the right to be annoyed.

Bottom line: there is no standard approach.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

PCs can lose magic equipment on occasion, since they can buy some at the store. (That's why you're supposed to let them buy EQ, to let you destroy EQ later on if you want to. If you let them buy something that later turns out to be "broken", you can break it.)

Don't to it too often, and don't use Mordenkainen's Disjunction, unless you want to roll for all 50 +5 arrows in that Hewards' Handy Haversack.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It seems to me that much of the 3e system is balanced by the magical gear the character's are assumed to be carrying.

I think here is the real problem. The wealth tables are guidelines, not requirements, not rules.

It is more of an early warning system for the DM than a balance mechanic.

Without a standard amount of wealth for a given level, creating a CR system would be hopeless, and the xp system would be down the toilet right after. Nor could there be meaningful guidance for what kind of parties to run through a published adventure module.

The wealth tables would only a problem if you were a dispassionate RoboDM who railroads the party through a series set status quo encounters.

In the real world, most DMs run mixes of status quo and tailored encounters. Even strict status quo encounters can be delayed until the party is ready by DM nudging.

If Fighter Joe loses his Sword of Doom, the DM is allowed to fudge things over the long haul so the character is not permenantly penalized in some significant way. It is expected that some wealth will be spent on expendable magic and replacing lost equipment.

 

[LokiDR]

Ridley's Cohort, you have missed something.

No matter what you do in D&D, if you don't have magic items, there isn't much chance for you. Your magic items define your character, not your experience. This seems wrong.

A DM can not sunder away at a party for long, unless he plans to give out large amounts of loot. I don't see mythic heros being defined by their loot. Hence the problem.

 

[Steverooo]

MIs

Agreed, LokiDR!

I was amazed to learn that 3ers expect to walk into a "Magic Shop" and BUY magic items! I was recently told that all Rangers should use nothing but Mithral (sic) chain shirts. I pointed out that not all had access to them, and was aghast when I was told that "your GM is being stingy"! For us old-time 1ers, this is almost unheard of!

Oh, sure, you could sometimes find a few potions, or some +1 ammo for sale, on a rare occasion... On an ever rarer one, you might actually see a +1 magic sword, NSA (No Special Abilities) for sale, but anything else, you had to find while adventuring! Why, I remember the days when The Dragon espoused that the players should be insulted if the DM tried to sell them a magic weapon (implying that they needed help)! Now, apparently, players are angered if they can't buy them!

I had ONE self-destructing magic item at first level, a plot-device to seal a tunnel (which melted, when used). I started off with leather armor and normal weapons, then moved up to Masterwork Studded Leather Armor and Buckler at second, still with no magic, nor even Masterwork weapons. At third level,I finally got a magic item, a suit of +1 Studded Leather, and a Masterwork Mighty bow... All my melee weapons were still normal. At fourth level I added a +1 Buckler, bought an Everburning Torch, added a point to STR and had to buy a new MW Mighty bow to take advantage of it, and started upgrading my melee weapons and tools to MW versions. At fifth level, I added a Heward's Handy Haversack. It wasn't until sixth level that I got a pair of +1 weapons.

Now there were some potions and such-like along the way, but I didn't have any more than the basics until seventh level, when I hit the jackpot, and found a couple of magical items that I was able to trade for the stuff I really wanted.

I never have found that elusive magic shop where all of those Mithral (sic) chain shirts are for sale, however... I don't think they exist in worlds run by those who recall playing 1e!.......

 

[Fenes 2]

Or who grew up on 2E.

Heck, I play in the (albeit heavily modified) FR, and I don't have magic 7-11's at the corner, nor magic weapons as common loot even at level 14.

 

[hong]

Re: MIs

Agreed, LokiDR!

I was amazed to learn that 21st century humans expect to walk into a "Magic Shop" and BUY magic items like sliced bread and laptop computers! I was recently told that everyone these days carries on trades where they accept payment in "dollars" for goods or services rendered. I pointed out that not all had access to "dollars", and was aghast when I was told that "your employer is being stingy"! For us old-time paleolithic tribespersons, who grew up without the concept of money, this is almost unheard of!

Oh, sure, you could sometimes find a few gold nuggets, or take the items you need off the slain bodies of your enemies, on a rare occasion... Or sometimes you might even come across an old battlefield, full of treasures to be taken, but anything else, you had to get via the good old-fashioned process of barter! Why, I remember the days when if The Dragon published an article you didn't like, you stormed their offices and put the editors and writers to the sword like the craven worms they were! Now, apparently, you're expected to just write a meek letter of protest! How many people do they expect to know how to write, anyway!

Back in the days I had ONE item, a wooden stick, in the late Pleistocene. I started off with mammoth hide and tree branches, then moved up to agriculture and in the Paleolithic era, still with no "magic", nor even flint. In the Neolithic, I finally discovered fire, tamed my first domestic animal, and harvested crops for the first time... All my weapons were still made of stone or wood. In the early Bronze Age I moved to the big city (they'd recently been invented in Mesopotamia and the concept spread from there), got a metal-headed axe, invented the bow and had to start creating arrowheads for it, and started building city walls. In the Iron Age, I had to change all my bronze implements to ferrous materials. It wasn't until the early Roman Empire that I learned about things like aqueducts and indoor plumbing. What outrageous concepts!

Now there were some latrines and septic tanks and such-like along the way, but I didn't see any real need for indoor plumbing or the concept of a monetary economy until the late Roman Empire, when I hit the jackpot, and found that I was able to sell the contents of my septic tank and buy the stuff I really wanted.

I never have found that elusive "magic" shop where all that sliced bread and laptop computers are for sale, however... I don't think they exist in worlds run by those who recall hunting mammoths with sticks!.......

Hmmm.


[LokiDR: have a look here for my imbued magic rules. You might also want to read Magic of Rokugan for a rationale on how 3E-style magic fits into a putatively magic-rare world.]

 

[LokiDR]

Re: Re: MIs

[LokiDR: have a look here for my imbued magic rules. You might also want to read Magic of Rokugan for a rationale on how 3E-style magic fits into a putatively magic-rare world.]

Already been there Hong, as we have gone round on this before. We use the same rationale (mine is also stolen from Rokugan) but have different rules. I would love to post a link about this, but I am lazy and have never typed it up all nice like.

My question: do you take any DM controls, or do you let them burn all the XP they want on anything?