Annoyed with Wealth Tables

[LokiDR]

Re: Where do Magic Items come from?

You missed the point, Loki...

PCs get magic items, they just can't BUY them! They find them in the ruins, get them from the villians, are offered them in return for undertaking the quest, etc. They don't BUY them, unless they have them made to order (which is how I finally got my weapons).

Ergo, the GM controls what's available. Casters who take the feats can still make their own stuff, but unless they own a mithril mine, those chain shirts will still be unavailable!

I don't know how your campaigns work, but the ones that I play in (or run) have no magic shops, and players can only "buy" magic items when creating a character above first level. In-game, they can't do it at all. The GMs place all items in the dungeons or hands of NPC, piles of monsters' discarded remains of previous victims, etc. The wealth works out the same, the selection just isn't controlled by the players.

I have used those tables. Sure the PCs got magic treasure. Almost none of which was worth anything but money to them. What are the chances a bastard sword specialized fighter will find an enchanted bastard sword? Not good, especially condsidering you have to roll good results 3 times.

So what are you going to do? Well, either you let the party suffer, place items you want them to have, or let them buy what they want, with some sort of control.

Let them suffer, what I was really taking about that you responded to, means the DM is going to have to alter challanges, especially at higher levels unless the party likes to craft items. I don't like the work involved in those modifications, since I could never just pull out a printed adventure.

Give them what they need: streaches the imagination. With so many different magic items and how expensive they are, it really isn't likely that the party will stumble across something they will find really useful. It hurts suspension of belief. "Isn't it convienient we found this +X sword just before the monster with +X DR?" It also gives spellcasters another advantage. The are need in combat to buff the party and out of combat to equip the party. I don't reliance on one character type being in the party, though I haven't found a way around clerics yet.

Let them buy what they want also has problems, like those you mentioned. But it makes more concepts balanced. Lightly armored characters don't work very well unless you have access to Mirthral. The game is designed on this premise, whether you and I like it or not. If fighters can get items that do most whatever the mages can do, the mages wont be so exclusive. If the players spend XP instead of gold, they will feel the loss more.

I think we agree that players should have what they need without going overboard. I go for letting them try anything and disapoving of some things. You go for handing it out.

 

[AuraSeer]

Originally posted by Steverooo
I never have found that elusive magic shop where all of those Mithral (sic) chain shirts are for sale, however... I don't think they exist in worlds run by those who recall playing 1e!.......

I wonder, do you still use the 1e rules for creating magic items?

In previous editions, enchanting items was a bit of a pain in the ass. You needed to have lots of wizard levels before even starting. It required the Enchant an Item spell, and (almost always) rare components that you had to quest for. If all you want is to make money, there are plenty of easier ways to get goods for sale.

3e makes it much simpler; all you need is the feat, plus time and some cash. There's very little difference between crafting a MW longsword for sale, and crafting a longsword +1 for sale. The latter has a small XP cost, but it's even less significant than the GP cost for raw materials.

Considering the new crafting rules, IMO it's only logical that some casters will make a living by selling magic items. Prohibiting this by DM fiat would just ruin my suspension of disbelief.

 

[Celebrim]

My economy is largely based on real medieval economics. Almost all manufactured goods are made to order. This most certainly includes almost all magic items. There is certainly nothing like a 'magic shop', but there are also equally certainly various expert craftsman who will for a suitable commission undertake to make just about anything.

Now, that doesn't mean the thing gets made, or that the craftsman isn't a charlatan (appraisal!), or that the PC's can find someone skilled enough to do the work (gather information!), or that craftsman decides he doesn't like these PC's all that much and overcharges them (diplomacy!), or that the craftsman in question isn't already under commission by someone far more powerful and prestigious than the PC's, or that the craftsman doesn't do work for the general public and requires an appropriate referal, or that the craftsman doesn't require the PC's to perform some service first, or that the craftsman simply isn't interested in making things for anyone because he is to busy with his own personal projects, etc.

I have alot of problems with magic shops. First they harm the atmosphere of the game and drag it unnecessarily into a modern paradigm (and all of the usual lack of role playing that normally goes along with that).

Secondly, they tend to reduce NPC interaction in the PC's heads down to the level of menus, and in a larger way turn all of society into some sort of rule based machine that the PC's plan to exchange X input for Y output. All of this is a fine mechanic for a CRPG, but frankly if that is the way you want to play you probably should be playing a CRPG.

Thirdly, they kill the value of taking feats that allow you to craft items for yourself. Why spend your own XP when you can pay some smuck to spend it for you?

Fourthly, on a very basic level they fail my realism test. In fact, I've often wondered why magic swords are all that common in the first place. Think about it. All magic swords are made by wizards. Making magic swords requires alot of investment in time and money and in the intangible but all important things that XP represent. Wizards can't use swords. Wizards have no use for swords, and any wizard with a brain is going to realize that if those sword swingers didn't have magic swords they'd be alot less dangerous to wizards in general. Why spend your time making magic swords, when you could be making wands and other equipment far more useful to yourself. If you must sell something of yourself to raise some cash, sell your spell casting. There is no end of practical labor you can accomplish with a few simple spells. Selling spells makes alot more economic sense; if only because it keeps the customer dependent on you rather than putting the power in thier hands. Hense we would expect there to be a rather large premium on non-wizardly magic items, and we would expect the largest producers of such items to not be wizards at all. And we all know that the various churches are going to have thier own reasons for restricting access to magic items.

Fifthly, they cheapen magic items to the point that they are no longer considered all that special. I'm shocked when players talk about specific items as just part of thier standard kit sorta like rope and spikes and torches used to be. Time was a +2 sword was a pretty special thing. I started in 1st edition myself and time was that by 10th level you'd only expect 1 miscellaneous magic item for about every two party members. The party would probably acquire its first +2 magic item sometime between 7th and 10th level, and noone in the party had expectations of getting hold of much better than a +3 at any point. The assumption was that there might be only a few +5 items in the entire world, and they were the sort of items that a DM felt utterly ashamed of himself to place and would only with trepidation place them in some impossible to reach utterly deadly location. Compare how well a 3rd. edition party is equipped to pregenerated PC's in 1st edition modules. If I'm not mistaken, DL had 10th level characters that had only a single +1 magic item. Tomb of Horrors is not a particularly nightmarish module for a very well equipped party. It is a particularly nightmarish module for a party equipped similarly to the pregenerated characters in the back of it.

 

[Willtell]

1st edition?

Never played that. Started off with ODnD and officical modules - magic was not rare in the Know World, and if you needed to buy a magic item just visit Darokin, Glantri or Aphatia!.


Sure it's disapointing that in 3e magic makes the barbarian, fighter, monk, ranger, rogue, etc. Those are the assumptions and you either work with those assumptions or spend a lot of time balancing things.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Fourthly, on a very basic level they fail my realism test. In fact, I've often wondered why magic swords are all that common in the first place. Think about it. All magic swords are made by wizards.

Actually IIRC, any caster with craft arms/armor can make basic +X armor and weapons. This includes bards, paladins, clerics, rangers, assassins, black guards, and druids. I can readily see an elderly paladin, too old to adventure, burning whatever XP he can on enchanting items for his order.

And while disagree that a wizard has no personal motivation to make weapons and armor ("if the fighter doesn't live the monster's coming for me next!"), my only real reason for why a mercenary mage wouldn't make a living selling spells is because there aren't that many people who can afford to wait to have a spell cast or who don't wan't to be bound to a single point of failure.

A wizard can use fabricate to do a lot of grunt work, replacing peasants, but as a noble I would only pay him what I pay the peasants as a whole. But in a medieval world the locals tended to owe the noble a certain degree of labor as a tithe so their labor is free. In those situations where that isn't the case, if the wizard leaves the project is screwed and it's not like you will likely be able to order him around. So the wealthy tend to avoid using spellcasters that they don't know and trust personally. Even then there are other reasons you might want to pay peasants; what if the burgher paying for a bridge is also the person who sells food & grain? Dozens of peasants consume more food than a single mage and can result in more of the money returning to the source.

we would expect the largest producers of such items to not be wizards at all. And we all know that the various churches are going to have thier own reasons for restricting access to magic items.

True but most fantasy worlds are polytheistic as is an adventuring group. Therefore you may only be able to get certain items from certain churches, the items as a whole are available on the market. (BTW: I do agree with this concept but I also know that just because 7-11 doesn't sell Mello Yello doesn't mean I can't go to Thornton's to get it.)

Thirdly, they kill the value of taking feats that allow you to craft items for yourself. Why spend your own XP when you can pay some smuck to spend it for you?

... Time was a +2 sword was a pretty special thing. I started in 1st edition myself ... Compare how well a 3rd. edition party is equipped to pregenerated PC's in 1st edition modules.

I will point out that there were three or four flavors of 1e. Tomb of Horrors was one, White Plume Mountain was another. The first was more DragonLance with level limits and magic restraints, the other Forgotten Realm with it's ever increasing ceiling and abundunt mystical geegaws.

But I don't think you can make those two statements agree. The existence of the feats mean you quite clearly are NOT in a 1e game. Back then you pretty much had to find items since it was such a snarfing pain to create the most minor item. These days it's butter up the casters to get them to make your "gottahaveit" item.

Since the feats exist there will likely be more magic in a 3e party than a 1e party. Heck, wizards can be guaranteed to have a couple of scrolls for emergencies or to generate cash. Furthermore those items will be tailor made for the party and would likely be useful to other adventurers. Continue that logic for a few thousand years and you'll have a significant amount of magic items in existence. Some get destroyed but others are constantly being made.

The fact is you can't run 3e the way you did 1e without it NOT being 3e. It may be d20, but it isn't 3e.

 

[Uller]

I'm not sure I see the point...

Are PCs defined by their magic items? Was King Arthur defined by Excalibur? Elric defined by Stormbringer? Saruman defined by his staff?

Magic items effect game balance (both interparty and intraparty balance). But you can certainly adjust the wealth guidelines up or down and still run a balanced game (within reason). There is also no reason you have to give PCs access to "magic shops" or whatever. You just have to remember two things:

1) If you one PC has significantly less magic than another, he's going to be significantly less effective in the game. Just like a PC with significanly less XP is going to be less effective.

2) If you are running prefab adventures (or trying to stick to the CR system...I know...it's flawed) then you've got to remember that less magic items will reduce the effective level of your party.

Also, siginificant adjustments in the wealth table will tend to increase the effectiveness of spell casters. For instance, a 5th level party is fighting a Wraith...but the PCs only have 1000gp worth of magic items on average...the fighter is going to be nearly useless while the wizard will still be nearly as effective (since probably most of his wealth is in scrolls or new spells...not just enchanted weapons and armor).

 

[Uller]

Continue that logic for a few thousand years and you'll have a significant amount of magic items in existence. Some get destroyed but others are constantly being made.

This is only true if you assume a certain level of wealth in the world. If there aren't vast troves of treasure about for people to plunder to use to produce magic items (and there aren't monsters around every corner to help magic makers gain XP), then making magic items becomes decidedly more difficult so there will be decidedly fewer of them around to purchase.

The fact is you can't run 3e the way you did 1e without it NOT being 3e. It may be d20, but it isn't 3e.

I disagree...everyone modifies the system in one way or another. A low-magic/low-wealth world is every bit the 3e that a higher magic one is.

Personally, I prefer the game played with the wealth guidelines as they are and allowing PCs limited access to purchase/make magic items. Why? As was mentioned...magic items define the character to an extent (at least they define his capabilities). I want the players to be able to customize their characters as much as is reasonably possible without throwing the game out of balance. This includes the magic items they carry.

So if a player would rather his PC have a +1 Keen Longsword than the +1 Thundering Battle Axe that they found...why shouldn't I let him go trade for it...we don't have a lot of "table time" so I don't waste a lot of time role-playing this stuff. Between adventures (I usually seperate major adventures by several months or even years) I tell them something like "During this time you can sell any of your items for 1/3 its market value and purchase any item at its market value...up to 1000 * (d20 + Gather Information) gp in value." or some such...the specific parameters vary depending on length of time and the situation.

Also keep in mind that I (and I would guess most DMs do this) make NPCs with customized magic items. They don't typically carry items that are useless to them...so I don't expect my players' PCs to do that either.

So the players can get the items they want and get rid of the ones they don't use.

 

[Piratecat]

Compare how well a 3rd. edition party is equipped to pregenerated PC's in 1st edition modules. If I'm not mistaken, DL had 10th level characters that had only a single +1 magic item.

Yeesh; considering how much magical treasure was given away in 1e modules, it seemed particularly unlikely. I remember running G1 and cutting out more than half of the magic, just to try and keep some sense of balance.

For me, it's interesting to see how equipped higher-lvl 3e characters are. Since very, very few 1e (or even 2e) games got above 12th-14th level, it seldom became an issue back then.

 

[Murrdox]

I definitely agree with Uller.

Customize the system however you like it, of course!

But while King Arthur was certainly not "defined" by Excalibur, it was certainly a very important part of him! Players like customizing their characters. Unless you're playing in a very very low magic setting, you should let them do so.

Otherwise, you're in the situation that Uller mentioned.... your PCs go into a dungeon, and find a +1 Thundering Battleaxe! Neat-o! Except for the fact that the only fighter in the party really had his heart set on a +1 keen longsword! Bummer!!

So you're NOT going to allow him to sell the Battleaxe and get his sword? He could either a) buy a +1 keen longsword (he may have to hunt around for one in various places) b) buy a masterwork longsword, and pay a cleric or wizard to enchant it like he wants it (this inolves being in a city with a character who is both high enough level AND posesses the correct feats to enchant the item... a service not available EVERYWHERE by all means!) or c) have a party-member enchant the item for him.

Personally, I think all three of them are acceptible solutions. The only other alternative is to KNOW that your player wants a +1 keen lonsword, and then to conveniently present a quest to him that has that reward.

 

[Uller]

Yeesh; considering how much magical treasure was given away in 1e modules, it seemed particularly unlikely. I remember running G1 and cutting out more than half of the magic, just to try and keep some sense of balance.

And look at the NPCs _STATS_ in most 1e adventures...no way the writers sat down and actually rolled those stats with the 3d6-put-em-where-you-roll-em method proscribed in pre-Unearthed Aracna rules!

I think in many ways 3e wealth guidelines (and feats and spells selection, etc. etc.) has allowed the players to have the same kind of control over their characters that the DM has.

I as a DM build my important NPCs with the EXACT SAME rules and guidelines I force my players to apply to their PCs. I use a 28-32 point buy (depending on the "kick-ass" factor I want for the NPC), I buy/create magic items using the wealth guidelines, I pick spells using the spell selection rules, etc. I also will roll a few random items, spells, etc. just to keep things interesting. It seems very unfair if the enemy Fighter just happens to specialize in Greatsword and has a magic great sword as his best weapon, but the PC fighter specializes in Longbow and you hand him a +2 Mace and expect him to be overjoyed with it.