MoutonRustique
Explorer
[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] - in that case, yeah, you can pretty much ignore any concerns I raised.
Another "Armour as DR" Thread (sort of)
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Its definitely interesting to talk about though. I mean, it seems like there has to be SOME degree of balance, or at least a good understanding of the balance, between higher and lower DR so that the game plays out well.
I think there are interesting things that can happen. Imagine a party. The fighter is heavily armored, so he laughs at 10 kobolds. The wizard on the other hand is terrified! If the kobolds get past the fighter, they'll gnaw him to bits. OTOH his REF is pretty high, and if he can use Shield to stop most of the attacks, then maybe he'll be OK. For a low DR high AC character something like shield might be the best bargain, just push your defense up to where the enemy needs a 20 to hit you, or at least a high number. For a guy with decent DR getting another couple points there OTOH would push him up to neigh invulnerable to small attacks.
The other thing of course is there's likely to be attacks against which DR is irrelevant. Everyone needs a good 'save' now and then. That fighter in heavy plate isn't so well off when a will-o-wisp zaps her with a lightning attack that she can't dodge.
Thank you for all your feed back. After reading through peoples thoughts I have rethought my original ideas. At the moment I am thinking of using something along the following lines:
1) I am planning to use 3d6 instead of d20 for all checks.
2) To attack a character rolls 3d6+Strength Modifier + Proficiency Modifier (Using a light weapon that the character is proficient in allows them to substitute their strength modifier for their dexterity modifier if it is higher).
3) Compare the characters modified attack roll to the difficulty (DC) to hit the target. This DC is 10 + Dexterity Modifier + Proficiency Modifier (Only add targets proficiency modifier if they are proficient in Dexterity checks OR Proficient with, and holding, a weapon that can be used to parry)
4) If the modified to hit roll is higher than the DC needed to hit the target damage is applied. Damage is 1d6 (Use the results of one of the 3d6 rolled depending on if the weapon is light, medium or heavy – See below) + Weapon Modifier + Strength Modifier (Using a light weapon that the character is proficient in allows them to substitute their strength modifier for their dexterity modifier if it is higher), (Using a weapon two handed allows a character to apply twice their strength modifier), (The bonus damage applied from strength, or dexterity, cannot exceed the base damage done from the 1d6 roll + the Weapons Damage Modifier).
5) If the target is wearing armour the damage they take is reduced by their damage reduction before it is applied.
Changes to Equipment:
Weapons are divided into three groups:
Light: These have all the properties of light and Finesse weapons. A character with proficiency in a light weapon can apply their dexterity ability modifier to hit and damage instead of their strength. A character can wield a light weapon in their “off” hand instead of a shield. Unless otherwise noted a successful hit with a light weapon dose damage equal to the lowest of the 3d6s rolled to hit.
Medium: These have all the properties of a versatile weapon. A character can use them one or two handed. If they are used two handed a character can apply twice their strength bonus to damage with medium weapons. Unless otherwise noted a successful hit with a medium weapon dose damage equal to the middle of the 3d6s rolled to hit.
Heavy: Heavy Weapons are larger than most other weapons. A medium sized character must use two hands to wield a heavy weapon (a large or larger character can wield a heavy weapon in one hand). A small character (a gnome or Halfling) cannot use a heavy weapon. If they are used two handed a character can apply twice their strength bonus to damage with heavy weapons. Unless otherwise noted a successful hit with a heavy weapon dose damage equal to the highest of the 3d6s rolled to hit.
Examples of Individual Weapon Properties:
Unarmed: light, -1 damage
Dagger: light
Rapier: light, +1 damage
Board Sword: medium, +1 damage
Great Sword: heavy, +3 damage
Armour Provided Damage Reduction:
Armour does not increase AC. Instead it reduces the amount of incoming damage from each blow by a certain amount.
Armour
Light
Padded: DR1
Leather: DR1
Hide: DR2
Medium
Brigandine: DR2
Chain Mail: DR3
Scale Mail: DR3
Heavy
Half-Plate: DR3
Banded Mail: DR4
Plate Mail: DR5
I am still a little unsure about weapon damage in this variant as it would be pretty disappointing to roll 1, 6, and 6 and only do 1 point of damage because you where using a light weapon. An alternative would be to have a light weapon do 1d6 damage and pick the best of the 3 rolls (this results in 6 about 40% of the time). Medium weapon would do 2d6 damage pick the best 2 of the 3 rolls and heavy weapon would do 3d6 damage equal to the roll (this results in 10-11 25% of the time).
can anyone suggest any further tweaking?
1) I am planning to use 3d6 instead of d20 for all checks.
2) To attack a character rolls 3d6+Strength Modifier + Proficiency Modifier (Using a light weapon that the character is proficient in allows them to substitute their strength modifier for their dexterity modifier if it is higher).
3) Compare the characters modified attack roll to the difficulty (DC) to hit the target. This DC is 10 + Dexterity Modifier + Proficiency Modifier (Only add targets proficiency modifier if they are proficient in Dexterity checks OR Proficient with, and holding, a weapon that can be used to parry)
4) If the modified to hit roll is higher than the DC needed to hit the target damage is applied. Damage is 1d6 (Use the results of one of the 3d6 rolled depending on if the weapon is light, medium or heavy – See below) + Weapon Modifier + Strength Modifier (Using a light weapon that the character is proficient in allows them to substitute their strength modifier for their dexterity modifier if it is higher), (Using a weapon two handed allows a character to apply twice their strength modifier), (The bonus damage applied from strength, or dexterity, cannot exceed the base damage done from the 1d6 roll + the Weapons Damage Modifier).
5) If the target is wearing armour the damage they take is reduced by their damage reduction before it is applied.
Changes to Equipment:
Weapons are divided into three groups:
Light: These have all the properties of light and Finesse weapons. A character with proficiency in a light weapon can apply their dexterity ability modifier to hit and damage instead of their strength. A character can wield a light weapon in their “off” hand instead of a shield. Unless otherwise noted a successful hit with a light weapon dose damage equal to the lowest of the 3d6s rolled to hit.
Medium: These have all the properties of a versatile weapon. A character can use them one or two handed. If they are used two handed a character can apply twice their strength bonus to damage with medium weapons. Unless otherwise noted a successful hit with a medium weapon dose damage equal to the middle of the 3d6s rolled to hit.
Heavy: Heavy Weapons are larger than most other weapons. A medium sized character must use two hands to wield a heavy weapon (a large or larger character can wield a heavy weapon in one hand). A small character (a gnome or Halfling) cannot use a heavy weapon. If they are used two handed a character can apply twice their strength bonus to damage with heavy weapons. Unless otherwise noted a successful hit with a heavy weapon dose damage equal to the highest of the 3d6s rolled to hit.
Examples of Individual Weapon Properties:
Unarmed: light, -1 damage
Dagger: light
Rapier: light, +1 damage
Board Sword: medium, +1 damage
Great Sword: heavy, +3 damage
Armour Provided Damage Reduction:
Armour does not increase AC. Instead it reduces the amount of incoming damage from each blow by a certain amount.
Armour
Light
Padded: DR1
Leather: DR1
Hide: DR2
Medium
Brigandine: DR2
Chain Mail: DR3
Scale Mail: DR3
Heavy
Half-Plate: DR3
Banded Mail: DR4
Plate Mail: DR5
I am still a little unsure about weapon damage in this variant as it would be pretty disappointing to roll 1, 6, and 6 and only do 1 point of damage because you where using a light weapon. An alternative would be to have a light weapon do 1d6 damage and pick the best of the 3 rolls (this results in 6 about 40% of the time). Medium weapon would do 2d6 damage pick the best 2 of the 3 rolls and heavy weapon would do 3d6 damage equal to the roll (this results in 10-11 25% of the time).
can anyone suggest any further tweaking?
Dour-n-Taciturn
Explorer
How about a tiered damage system? Since armor adds to AC, the amount the attacker hits by reflects DR by default, though not proportionately (i.e. 1:1). Say that if you hit by 5, add one more damage die/dice (i.e. 1d8 becomes 2d8), and if you hit by 10, add two more die/dice instead; a critical may add one more die in addition to the extra damage die if hit by 5/10. Therefore, a 2d6 weapon that crits and hits by 10 would do 8d6 damage. Add Strength modifier and any bonus damage/sneak attack only once.
Now this can clearly be quite deadly, an 8d6 averages out to 28. Obviously sneak attack damage would have to be limited to appropriately small weapons. Also, base AC or armor bonuses may have to be upped (which is a book-keeping headache for stat block conversion on the fly). Lastly, weapon accuracy modifiers would have to be added, say a -2 for a maul or a +2 for a dagger (more book-keeping issues obviously).
This is clearly more crunch-oriented, since it goes against the whole "streamlined-play" style espoused in 5th Ed.
Now this can clearly be quite deadly, an 8d6 averages out to 28. Obviously sneak attack damage would have to be limited to appropriately small weapons. Also, base AC or armor bonuses may have to be upped (which is a book-keeping headache for stat block conversion on the fly). Lastly, weapon accuracy modifiers would have to be added, say a -2 for a maul or a +2 for a dagger (more book-keeping issues obviously).
This is clearly more crunch-oriented, since it goes against the whole "streamlined-play" style espoused in 5th Ed.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
Something I just thought of a few minutes ago, but armor as AC does approximate armor as DR over the course of many attacks.
What if you took the average expected damage for an attack, and rolled that number of d20, with each success dealing 1 damage? Each +1 of AC would effectively give you 5% damage reduction over the course of 20 damage, and small sources of damage would still be able to get through with the appropriate probability.
What if you took the average expected damage for an attack, and rolled that number of d20, with each success dealing 1 damage? Each +1 of AC would effectively give you 5% damage reduction over the course of 20 damage, and small sources of damage would still be able to get through with the appropriate probability.
Dour-n-Taciturn
Explorer
As a simulation, armor adding to hit difficulty is exactly that, an approximation of damage reduction. I think the OP in this and related threads are looking to add more "realism" by having a separate "soak" roll like in White Wolf after a hit has been scored. The problem has been game balance when trying to graft armor DR on to an AC/armor hit DC system.
You basically have two major options: 1) reduce or eliminate armor bonus to AC w/ limited DR vs. standard damage. 2) increase damage based on how "good" a hit you score vs. higher armor bonuses to AC and/or DR. Then the problem becomes one of slowing the flow of combat as everyone adds in another step and the DM has to modify existing stat blocks, weapons, and spells.
So we are left with accepting the conceit for the sake of time savings, or grafting on house rules of varying degrees of complexity. The reason for these threads are a means of applying the later using the minimum of fuss, and we end up with some sort of compromise, accepting the added complexity and book-keeping.
You basically have two major options: 1) reduce or eliminate armor bonus to AC w/ limited DR vs. standard damage. 2) increase damage based on how "good" a hit you score vs. higher armor bonuses to AC and/or DR. Then the problem becomes one of slowing the flow of combat as everyone adds in another step and the DM has to modify existing stat blocks, weapons, and spells.
So we are left with accepting the conceit for the sake of time savings, or grafting on house rules of varying degrees of complexity. The reason for these threads are a means of applying the later using the minimum of fuss, and we end up with some sort of compromise, accepting the added complexity and book-keeping.
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AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Why not just forget about the concept of different damage amounts from different weapons? Or instead of making it anything to do with dice just purely use a fixed damage bonus. That lets your great axe cleave through plate armor better than an arming sword, but also means that even a dagger does substantial damage. It may be less than said great axe, but if everything is doing say 1d8 base damage, plus a bonus of 1-3 points, and you restrict armor to somewhere between 1 and 4 DR then it should work pretty well. You could also offer different damage dice by class instead of weapon, ala 13a and Dungeon World.
Dour-n-Taciturn
Explorer
HARN World had a fixed damage system based on the weapon, you would then add a number of d6 depending on how well you hit (it used a failure/success/crit. failure/crit. success table based on a percentile system; armor was a fixed DR.
Using one die/plus a limited modifier vs. a limited DR could work, but I suspect such a limited range may have limited appeal, not to mention how spells and other non-mundane/non-physical damage types would factor in vs. their defensive counterparts.
Damage as a feature of class is intriguing but, again, for "realism/simulationism" it can be just as vexing philosophically as armor/AC instead of DR.
Using one die/plus a limited modifier vs. a limited DR could work, but I suspect such a limited range may have limited appeal, not to mention how spells and other non-mundane/non-physical damage types would factor in vs. their defensive counterparts.
Damage as a feature of class is intriguing but, again, for "realism/simulationism" it can be just as vexing philosophically as armor/AC instead of DR.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I certainly don't think any of these various options are the last word on the subject. In fact I'd say pretty much all options were explored sometime before 1985 and none of them proved to be exceedingly better than the others. I expect that's one of the reasons D&D's AC/damage system hasn't really changed since it was created. I expect Gary and Dave were already familiar with all the main options even then and picked a solid design. Still, I like the way DR meshes with 4e-style defences.
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