Another Cease and Desist Letter: 4E Powercards

[Merkuri]

I'm shocked it took until page 7 of this thread for someone to lament that WotC didn't put this guy on the payroll.

The problem with putting somebody like this on the payroll is that WotC does not want to encourage sites like these. They might admire the software engineering or the creativity in the way they were displayed, but bottom line was they were very blatantly violating WotC's copyright. If WotC took this guy and said, "We're going to forgive the copyright violation and give you a job," there would probably be tons of other people springing up with websites of their own who were afraid to do so before for fear of legal action from WotC. That's not something WotC wants.

 

[Imaro]

Right- WotC very well may have said, "Huh, this kid's got five power cards posted on his web site. That's cool- that will help promote the game, but it doesn't do it by posting wholesale chapters of the PH." Then, when they found someone who was posting wholesale chapters of the PH, they said, "WHOAH!! NOT COOL!!"

Just because they gave someone an inch doesn't mean that anyone else can get away with a mile.

I understand that it's "bad for the fans" if WotC defends its intellectual property. Heck, I wish all the awesome d&d gravy was free too. I'd never miss a supplement then! But, wait- how would the Rouse, mearls, Mr. Cordell and all the rest get paid?? Sometimes "bad for the fans" means the business keeps going.

You did see the card I posted right? It's not a matter of an inch vs. a mile. The only discernible difference (Because there are PDF's of the full power cards on numerous sites) is that this website allowed you to pick and choose which cards you wanted and construct a PDF with just those cards to print... but they really are the exact same cards.

In the end I do not disagree that WotC had the right to take the site down, but I think it was particularly petty, and only happened because WotC is choosing to sell their own cards for $10 a class (hope these have a nice space to write in my bonuses and are reusable as said bonuses change without falling apart from the eraser). I personally believe it's a money thing and not a protection of trademark or copyright thing. I also believe WotC was content to let these fan made cards float around the internet because they realized at the time it helped facilitate play of 4e and the only cards they had offered were with the sub-par character sheets. Now they need to drive their players towards DDI or to purchasing packs of power cards... I understand it totally, just don't like it when I'm looking at the stuff other, rpg companies allow for free.

 

[Merkuri]

I personally believe it's a money thing and not a protection of trademark or copyright thing.

Why can't it be both?

Companies protect their trademark and their copyright BECAUSE of money.

 

[Imaro]

Why can't it be both?

Companies protect their trademark and their copyright BECAUSE of money.

All I'm doing is stating what I believe it to be. It very well could be both, but I find that hard to believe since these sites and numerous others with full sets of power cards have been allowed to operate since last year. But with the advent of the character builder (finally) and their own packs of cards... now it's crackdown time.

I mean honestly people who don't want to buy the cards are either going to make their own, write it out on an index card or just use a sheet... I know I don't plan on spending $10 per class on power cards which, if even one gets messed up I have to buy a whole pack again to get it. I'd rather have a PDF collection... which of course WotC isn't offering.

 

[xechnao]

Why can't it be both?
Companies protect their trademark and their copyright BECAUSE of money.

In fact the term intellectual property is a bit strange. It makes one almost try to imagine it refers to the intellectual value of something, rather than the value of commercial rights on marketable products dressed with the intellectual "matter".
Imagine if a singer wrote a song and only he was able to sing it live to other people. Does such a thing exist?

 

[grickherder]

In fact the term intellectual property is a bit strange. It makes one almost try to imagine it refers to the intellectual value of something, rather than the value of commercial rights on marketable products dressed with the intellectual "matter".
Imagine if a singer wrote a song and only he was able to sing it live to other people. Does such a thing exist?

Intellectual property doesn't refer to the actual work in question. Intellectual property refers to the exclusive rights for reproduction and/or distribution. The actual legally protected rights are the property. The term has just been thrown around and propagandized so much that people think the intellectual property is the actual work. It's the rights that can be bought, sold, rented, licensed, etc.,.

Who owns the actual work? Not a relavant question. I own my player's handbook that I bought but WotC owns the right to reproduce it. I have property rights and WotC has protected commercial rights to the same work.

As far as the original topic goes, WotC was totally in their rights to ask the website in question to shut down. It was a great site, (in terms of usefulness, design, etc.,), but an obvious violation of WotC's exclusive rights. WotC was in no way unreasonable for asking it to be taken down.

 

[xechnao]

Intellectual property doesn't refer to the actual work in question. Intellectual property refers to the exclusive rights for reproduction and/or distribution. The actual legally protected rights are the property. The term has just been thrown around and propagandized so much that people think the intellectual property is the actual work. It's the rights that can be bought, sold, rented, licensed, etc.,.

Who owns the actual work? Not a relavant question. I own my player's handbook that I bought but WotC owns the right to reproduce it. I have property rights and WotC has protected commercial rights to the same work.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say. I guess you were trying to agree with me here but I always conserve the doubt of failing to be clear first place. I know it happens a lot of times!

EDIT: I also want to add distribution and reproduction must be something industrialized. It cant be forced on people reading something orally. And this is why and where trade dress and trademarks are important I guess.

 

[grickherder]

Sorry if my post came across as pedantic or rude. I was trying to agree-- my bad on the communication front.

 

[xechnao]

Sorry if my post came across as pedantic or rude. I was trying to agree-- my bad on the communication front.

hey, no worries about you. I was actually worrying about my communication front which I know for a fact it is not "user friendly"

 

[MrGrenadine]

IANAL, but if 4epowercards.com was my site, I would've been tempted to see what the courts would've said about the matter.

Selling someone else's work as your own is wrong, but thats not the case here. No money changed hands, and no credit was taken--the text in question was obviously quoted from the PHB and other WotC books.

Also, as stated above, the powers themselves are incomplete information, so you couldn't possibly reverse engineer the game rules from the power cards. The powers use terms which are only defined in the core books, so you could know that a power came into affect when a creature was 'bloodied', but you wouldn't know what 'bloodied' meant unless you used the rule book itself. And why would anyone even want the cards unless he or she was already playing the game, (i.e. is also a WotC customer)?

To me, this is a case of someone simply providing a service to aid the playing of a game. Take chess for example--if someone made free cards for each piece that described how the piece moved, even if quoting from rules printed by another company, what's the problem? To play the game, you would still need a board and pieces. The cards only assist with playing, they don't eradicate the need to purchase the game.


And assuming that both sites that were recently shut down were violating WotC's copyright, my question is this: why didn't either site merely change their content enough to comply with the law?

In the case of 4epowercards.com, replacing the actual text with a paraphrased version is all that would've been needed, (and the removal of any D&D or WotC logos or trademarks, if there were in any in use).

But in both cases, the sites were shut down with ONE very brief comment from the creator, which means that the creators both signed non-disclosure agreements, AND one of two things:

WotC used such heavy handed tactics that the site creator was scared into going away and signing the NDA, OR WotC was really nice about it, and paid the site creator a significant amount to go away and sign the NDA.

You can see how, in both cases, it behooves WotC to keep the details of the deal quiet, and I would love to know how both went down.