Pathfinder 2E Another Deadly Session, and It's Getting Old

dave2008

Legend
It’s discussed on page 49 of the GMG (the advice is basically foreshadow the extreme danger and let the players retreat). There are also sections in the pf2 modules that I have read (hellknight hill and cult of cinders) that illustrate how to do it. The example in the first module uses multiple weak encounters that combine into a severe encounter if you let them while the ones (there are two) in Cult of Cinders will quickly become unwinnable.
I was thinking about how do you handle it when it just happens. Or how do you set up with the expectation that it could / likely will happen. I will check out pg 49 though. It has been a while since I look at the GMG.

PS I don't run published adventures and very rarely purchase them.
 

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Retreater

Legend
PS I don't run published adventures and very rarely purchase them.
I get the sentiment, as I really enjoy writing my own material. With PF2 being a new system for us, I thought playing their inaugural Adventure Path would help me wrap my head around the rules. However, this isn't turning out to be the case. I often think it would just be easier to write my own encounters and story than the convoluted story presented, with encounters that have to be rebalanced, and all the extra work to put it in Roll20. Yet, my players are determined to continue the AP for now, so I have to find a way to make it all work.
I will reiterate my complaint about the PF2 Adventure Paths to date - they need a "starter" one. Teach us the rules as we go. Have straightforward combats and an easy-to-follow storyline. Why this wasn't the first thing they produced (like the D&D Starter Set), I don't have a clue. This isn't like when PF1 came out with Rise of the Runelords, which built on familiarity with the 3.5 system - this is a completely new system, and the absence of beginner-friendly material is a big oversight.
 

dave2008

Legend
I get the sentiment, as I really enjoy writing my own material. With PF2 being a new system for us, I thought playing their inaugural Adventure Path would help me wrap my head around the rules.
I understand, I was just clarifying that rules explanations in adventures will not help me.

Also, it is not because I don't want to, I just can't get in the flow of any published adventure the baffle me.
 

Wasteland Knight

Adventurer
"Cult of Cinders" pp 57-59, Areas C6 and C7.

So I read through these two rooms, and there are some things in the text that make me think the intention if the designers was for this to play out as two completely distinct encounters.

Also, while it’s very clear the conditions to activate the hazard, the text is somewhat vague on who would and wouldn’t be a viable target. I almost wonder if creatures who would not trigger the trap could still be a viable target once triggered by another character, which would substantially change what happened in the OP.

In short, I think the way the OP ran it was very reasonable and “common sense”, but in so doing I think it became virtually an impossible to win scenario.

I think this is ultimately bad adventure design: either the adventure should have been very clear as to what could or couldn’t happen, or should have built encounters differently such that if everything rolled together it was still a reasonable encounter.
 
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kenada

Legend
Supporter
I get the sentiment, as I really enjoy writing my own material. With PF2 being a new system for us, I thought playing their inaugural Adventure Path would help me wrap my head around the rules. However, this isn't turning out to be the case. I often think it would just be easier to write my own encounters and story than the convoluted story presented, with encounters that have to be rebalanced, and all the extra work to put it in Roll20.
I’ve said it before, but if we’d started off with an adventure path or an adventure, my group would have bounced off PF2 hard. I think a couple of TPKs would be guaranteed, and that’d be it.

I will reiterate my complaint about the PF2 Adventure Paths to date - they need a "starter" one. Teach us the rules as we go. Have straightforward combats and an easy-to-follow storyline. Why this wasn't the first thing they produced (like the D&D Starter Set), I don't have a clue. This isn't like when PF1 came out with Rise of the Runelords, which built on familiarity with the 3.5 system - this is a completely new system, and the absence of beginner-friendly material is a big oversight.
I totally agree. Even the starter adventure they released for free starts off against a nasty encounter. Paizo really needs to crank the difficulty down a notch to broaden the appeal of their adventures beyond just those who like challenging combat.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Yes, fine. Just doing everything automatically is an option. I think it’s an incredibly boring option, but it is technically an option.

I guess I’m having trouble understanding why one would want to bother having hazards in a way that doesn’t present any interesting gameplay, and doing something to make them interesting is apparently something the GM should need relief from doing. I can understand wanting to montage exploration, treating it as scene dressing (as I expect most people do), but what’s the point of having a scene where the PCs don’t make meaningful choices?
If that's a genuine question, I'd happy to answer. But before I do that I'd like to make it clear that while sometimes I do think I'm playing the game in a better way ;), this is simply a case of different preferences.

We like our focus to be on combat, and story, and interacting with NPCs. Exactly how you scan a wall, or how you approach a statue, or whether you first check the door knob for hidden traps before opening the door is tedious old-school "dungeon minutiae" to us.

Just assume the characters are doing their thing, and tell us when there's anything requiring our input as players.

That means either "the chest blows up in your face" or "you spot the tripwire, hidden daggers, evil genie". Those are the two end outcomes. That's what's important. All the specifics of where you look, and whether you look behind the bookshelves or lift all the pillows is not useful - at least not when you've seen a hundred dungeons already. All that's best abstracted away just making the Spot Hidden or Perception check.

The main reason for this is: You're asked to discuss specifics with no actual information. That's akin to role-playing what you're eating for breakfast. A perfectly fine way of spending your game sessions, and sure we might do it. Once, at level 1. Then we'd much rather get to the point.

Now, if you spot the trap, then obviously you do have actual information. Do we back off, try to disable the trap or maybe something else.

But describing doors and walls, and trying to put in clues as to when it's worthwhile to take particular care, only to the take that particular care... I probe it. I smell it. I reach behind it. I look at it in UV light. Traps just don't have that amount of detail.

They're just traps, and constantly worrying about them or manually handling them makes dungoneering slow to a crawl. Not to mention that for every instance where there really IS a trap, you have all the instances where there is no trap! When the party becomes suspicious of a statue that just happens to look like the King's assassin it can easily take oodles of time (that you never get back)... or "I check the statue. Your Perception tells you nothing. Fine. Let's move on"

And then you have the mechanics side of it. The game simply isn't detailed enough for extensive investigations of chests or doors to have meaning. Sure the GM can make up details such as the exact length of the door handle or how worn it appears to be. But there's no game, no modifiers, no game behind it. We believe there are plenty of actual rules that take time, and do not need to invent even more time sinks.

We're entirely fine with no foreshadowing needed, and no player detailed interaction needed. It's just a trap. It doesn't merit slowing down the entire dungeon experience.

We prefer to simply say "Mighty Krull goes from the outer room to the inner room". All the disclaimers like "I check everything carefully along the way" is implicit and assumed. Is there a trap, either we detect it or we don't. No need to draw it out. And if there isn't a trap, then no time was lost. A lot less work for the GM, a lot less time spent on nothing by the group.

Cheers
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
If that's a genuine question, I'd happy to answer. But before I do that I'd like to make it clear that while sometimes I do think I'm playing the game in a better way ;), this is simply a case of different preferences.
It’s a little of both (but mostly rhetorical). I’d a hunch we had different play styles. 😜

For us, the encounters aren’t really the point. The story isn’t really the point. Actually, there isn’t one. The story that gets told is the one that emerges from the decisions the PCs make. The foreshadowing stuff, the building up the important things so players can interact with them and make decisions, that applies at all levels. Anyway, there’s a thread here where I discuss some of the stuff I’m doing with exploration. I don’t need to go into all that here. 😅
 




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