Unfortunately the Roll20 Charactermancer won't allow exporting. And taking screenshots will be impractical because the format would take probably 12 or so pics per character to get all of it.
Pathfinder 2E Another Deadly Session, and It's Getting Old
I can enjoy that style of play very much. However, I would say more than half of my players would actively hate that exploration style, the casual player would be okay with it, and the other player is probably going to be leaving for personal reasons anyway in a session anyway.
I'm hesitant to slow the pace further with side quests. Due to TPKs and restarting, testing new character builds, etc, we've been stuck in the quagmire of this second adventure in the AP for about 5 months.
I guess my view is the "real experience" is what Paizo put in the adventure. And if I start adding new locations, plots, NPCs, etc, that will change the experience. Plus there's the additional factor that new material may contradict subsequent AP books.
Nilbog
Snotling Herder
Foundry only requires installation on the host computer, this can then be reached through a browser by everyone else, the downside is you need a relatively powerful host pc and a good internet connection for that.
If you don't have that you can always pay a monthly subscription to have your game hosted in the forge which is a dedicated cloud solution. Also if you are tech minded there is a guide out there showing you how to host foundry in AWS. I believe the free tier gives you enough to host as well.
Right. I wasn't talking about adding material (although you certainly can). I was talking about not stripping 90% of the module out until it is nothing but a series of combats. Let me get nostalgic here: back in the days of AD&D 2e and earlier, things like CR or monster Level or the 'adventuring day' hadn't been invented yet and each fight was potentially life-threatening since players only had their experience and judgment to determine whether a fight was winnable (Can you take a young black dragon at level 3? A troll at level 1?) But the game still ran, because the games weren't so much about fighting monsters, but figuring out whether you should attempt to fight the monster or sneak by it or talk to it or trick it and so on.
Aside: This incidentally is why some older advice seems really bizarre to modern players - take the concept of reserves, that is the players holding back a wizard or other spellcaster with a couple of high level spells to facilitate a retreat or rescue if the rest of the party gets in trouble - you never see that in modern play and most would (I think) argue against it as a tactic since it decreases your action economy/dpr which makes the fight harder.
The reason I bring this up is Cult of Cinder has the same type of old-school exploration/puzzle encounter structure. You are not meant to charge into every fight swinging, but to explore and puzzle out the encounters, like it was an old school game. Let's look at a specific example area from the module:
The rain, nearly constant within the jungle, comes down in sheets between the broken gaps of the forest canopy here, the clouds above almost black and flashing with lightning. Several of the trees in the area are split open, with jagged wounds along their bark, their insides smoldering red as they burn from the inside out.
This storm-wracked glade is the resting place of one of the Cinderclaws’ dragon pillars, one of the first that was crafted and among the most powerful. Its fell power has resulted in a perpetual storm in the skies above, with sheets of rain and lightning strikes punctuated by ominous blasts of thunder that turn the area into a dangerous trial. Though many of the trees have been blasted open by lightning, the canopy remains mostly intact, providing cover for creatures hiding or flying among the tops of the trees.
Creatures: A small group of bat-like sabosans (page 91) roost here in the undamaged trees, serving as guardians to the dragon pillar. These sabosans were impressed by the power of Belmazog and her patron Dahak and were easily recruited into the Cinderclaws. Although the sabosans’ flight and nightvision capabilities would be incredible assets to the cult if used properly, Belmazog’s limited imagination and poor tactical mind has resulted in the creatures being used here as simple guards. The magic of the pillar does not electrocute the trees where the sabosans are roosting, but the sabosans have little love of being wet and emerge to attack only if the PCs approach the pillar.
Although they respect the Cinderclaws’ power, the sabosans are not willing to die for the cult, and a sabosan reduced below one-quarter of its Hit Points flees back to the main Cinderclaw encampment (see Chapter 4). This can give the PCs a hint as to the direction to travel, but any sabosans who escape in this manner will be healed and present at the Cinderclaw encampment when the PCs reach the fortress, likely stationed on the fort’s encircling wall.
If the PCs manage to capture and question a sabosan, communication may be difficult, as these sabosans speak only Abyssal. The sabosans aren’t intelligent enough to know the answers to most of the PCs’ questions, but they can point the PCs toward the main Cinderclaw encampment, and they do not need to be convinced to do so because they hope that the PCs run afoul of Belmazog and are killed by the cult leader.
SABOSANS (3) CREATURE 5 Page 91 Initiative Perception +10
Hazard: The yellow dragon pillar is one of the eight dragon pillars that ward the region. Destroying it removes the yellow layer of the protective shell surrounding the Cinderclaw fortress (see Dahak’s Shell on page 54).
YELLOW DRAGON PILLAR HAZARD 6 Page 28 Perception +16
This storm-wracked glade is the resting place of one of the Cinderclaws’ dragon pillars, one of the first that was crafted and among the most powerful. Its fell power has resulted in a perpetual storm in the skies above, with sheets of rain and lightning strikes punctuated by ominous blasts of thunder that turn the area into a dangerous trial. Though many of the trees have been blasted open by lightning, the canopy remains mostly intact, providing cover for creatures hiding or flying among the tops of the trees.
Creatures: A small group of bat-like sabosans (page 91) roost here in the undamaged trees, serving as guardians to the dragon pillar. These sabosans were impressed by the power of Belmazog and her patron Dahak and were easily recruited into the Cinderclaws. Although the sabosans’ flight and nightvision capabilities would be incredible assets to the cult if used properly, Belmazog’s limited imagination and poor tactical mind has resulted in the creatures being used here as simple guards. The magic of the pillar does not electrocute the trees where the sabosans are roosting, but the sabosans have little love of being wet and emerge to attack only if the PCs approach the pillar.
Although they respect the Cinderclaws’ power, the sabosans are not willing to die for the cult, and a sabosan reduced below one-quarter of its Hit Points flees back to the main Cinderclaw encampment (see Chapter 4). This can give the PCs a hint as to the direction to travel, but any sabosans who escape in this manner will be healed and present at the Cinderclaw encampment when the PCs reach the fortress, likely stationed on the fort’s encircling wall.
If the PCs manage to capture and question a sabosan, communication may be difficult, as these sabosans speak only Abyssal. The sabosans aren’t intelligent enough to know the answers to most of the PCs’ questions, but they can point the PCs toward the main Cinderclaw encampment, and they do not need to be convinced to do so because they hope that the PCs run afoul of Belmazog and are killed by the cult leader.
SABOSANS (3) CREATURE 5 Page 91 Initiative Perception +10
Hazard: The yellow dragon pillar is one of the eight dragon pillars that ward the region. Destroying it removes the yellow layer of the protective shell surrounding the Cinderclaw fortress (see Dahak’s Shell on page 54).
YELLOW DRAGON PILLAR HAZARD 6 Page 28 Perception +16
Now you can, if you stretch a bit, read that as: "The PCs are suddenly 60' from the yellow dragon pillar. It uses its reaction to blast them. There are also 3 sabosans here that attack. Roll initiative." But you're basically dumping your party into a severe encounter with no prep – sort of like an old final fantasy game where the screen spins while you are in overland travel mode and you are suddenly in a fight with three imps and a wolf. And it sounds like your players might like that sort of thing, but if they go into a puzzle encounter like this half-cocked and with a “I browse the internet when out of combat” attitude then there is a real possibility that they will get stomped, so you either need to have them try and engage the puzzle exploration aspect, alter the encounter to fit how they are playing the game, or risk a TPK. And it sounds like they are completely unwilling to do the first, they were preventing you from doing the second, and so they keep getting TPKed. From what I have read Age of Ashes, unaltered, seems like a very bad fit for your group.
For the record, I read the area as more like this:
The PCs are traveling and notice that there is a lightning storm centered over a spot; thunder, wind, rain, lightning strikes destroying nearby trees, thinned canopy that still provides cover, etc. And since the PCs notice something off, we switch to exploration turns as they investigate. Notice that in the red text they didn't mention that they see the Dragon Pillar or any monsters immediately attacking, and in the description they actually state that the sabosans don't like the storm and have huddled up in their trees, so they will only attack if the PCs approach the Pillar. The PCs are then going to do their best to explore the scene, work out whats going on, and engage it on their terms (note the subtle clues that the module throws in as to the location of the sabosans and how it gives a lot of information on their morale, knowledge, and motivations). In doing those things, the PCs will of course engage the extensive mechanical framework that PF2e built for this purpose. Maybe they sneak up and try to kill the sabotons; maybe they turn the fighter invisible and have them knock over the pillar before it can electrocute anyone; maybe they try and negotiate with the sabotons; maybe they buff up, raise their shields, and charge in. I can't tell what will happen because the players have agency in this scene – and that is what I'm talking about with exploration and puzzles being part of the module.
In general you don’t need to worry about this as long as you don’t make any changes to the underlying structure (main villains, goal of the module, plot important items, etc.) you should be fine. The APs are usually very modular.
dungeonHamster
Explorer
I just wanted to say, thanks for those detailed posts. I wouldn't even call myself a struggling GM (though I am newish compared to this venerable crowd as I started with 5E as a critical role baby), but I reaped a lot of valuable information from your posts. My players and I love Pathfinder 2 coming from 5E and we adore Paizo APs, but reading your posts made me realize that I have a long way to go to give my players a truly great experience.
I really appreciated the actionable examples you included; I am a little too guilty of running encounters without a proper amount of forewarning. I'll study hard to make some truly memorable experiences! Thanks again!
The-Magic-Sword
Small Ball Archmage
!DWolf, I have to admit, I don't run APs and I felt excited in my belly when I read the way that scene is laid out. I think the old school approach really is for me, which is the kick I've been on for quite a while now.
One other consideration that I find interesting for this thread as a whole is the attitude we take toward the difficulty of the game-- the skill level of any given group is static, and so the game is either definitively too hard, or too easy.
But maybe the approach should be taken that the game is somewhat difficult, and so players can learn from there failures and return to the game a little wiser? That's how we approach difficulty in every other genre and medium of game.
Its complicated by the fact that failure in TTRPGs is often 'dumbed down' to represent an ending to the campaign, but it doesn't have to be that way... and even if it were when your players make new characters and jump into their next adventure, they'll still be a little wiser and more cautious about their play.
I've noticed that there's kind of a culture we have of "failure means the GM did something wrong, everything should be designed for us to succeed, with only an illusion of possible failure" that excludes gaming where growing in response to challenge is a consideration, because the players "shouldn't have to do anything different to succeed."
One other consideration that I find interesting for this thread as a whole is the attitude we take toward the difficulty of the game-- the skill level of any given group is static, and so the game is either definitively too hard, or too easy.
But maybe the approach should be taken that the game is somewhat difficult, and so players can learn from there failures and return to the game a little wiser? That's how we approach difficulty in every other genre and medium of game.
Its complicated by the fact that failure in TTRPGs is often 'dumbed down' to represent an ending to the campaign, but it doesn't have to be that way... and even if it were when your players make new characters and jump into their next adventure, they'll still be a little wiser and more cautious about their play.
I've noticed that there's kind of a culture we have of "failure means the GM did something wrong, everything should be designed for us to succeed, with only an illusion of possible failure" that excludes gaming where growing in response to challenge is a consideration, because the players "shouldn't have to do anything different to succeed."
I guess my issue is that the AP fails when this happens repeatedly. You can't have a cohesive story if this keeps happening (3 times in 6 sessions). The lethality of the system seems at odds with the hour-plus character creation mini game and the default assumption of playing an Adventure Path instead of one shots.
We have our first time back tonight after more than a month, or first time since the deaths that inspired my original post. We'll see if it goes differently. I gave the characters an extra level, an extra hero point, and they are replaying the same fight from last season (so they will have the information).
Time to find out if they can do it.
For those curious about the fate of the group, I let them advance to 9th level and start the session with 2 hero points, along with knowledge about the hazard and enemies in the following room. I also told them if the hazard was triggered before the door opened, they wouldn't be facing the combat and hazard at the same time. I also figured out how to roll individual initiatives for the like bad guys.
A single religion roll took out the hazard. The party rolled over the next combat. Took a 10 minute break to completely heal up. Stomped the next fight. Ten minute break, fully recovered. Went into the next fight, and had a pretty easy time with that one too, the climatic encounter of the adventure.
The wizard dropped once but was saved by a breath of life reaction. Most others stayed near triple digit HP throughout.
So I guess that was a success? A little too easy for my taste, but it wasn't a TPK at least.
A single religion roll took out the hazard. The party rolled over the next combat. Took a 10 minute break to completely heal up. Stomped the next fight. Ten minute break, fully recovered. Went into the next fight, and had a pretty easy time with that one too, the climatic encounter of the adventure.
The wizard dropped once but was saved by a breath of life reaction. Most others stayed near triple digit HP throughout.
So I guess that was a success? A little too easy for my taste, but it wasn't a TPK at least.
Thomas Shey
Legend
Depends on how difficult that particular encounter was supposed to be. Some PF2e encounters are very much just palate cleaners.
dave2008
Legend
They reran the same encounter that was previously a TPK. So it went from a TPK to a cakewalk with some guidance and one extra level.
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