Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Clay]

Yes, Apotheosis!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Krust, what's the remaining pagecount on Apotheosis?

Technically zero, since I have all the pages in place, but not each page completed. The portfolios chapter needs the most attention. I'll also go over the abilities and epic feats section. I have actually come up with more powers while working on the Bestiary, so if anything there may even be more powers and abilities.

I also have a section on feat and ability packages, to help players and DMs create characters faster. In many ways this mimics multifaceted abilities in D&Dg like Divine Monk or Divine Paladin, which are not individual abilities but more of a collection of feats...of course I go a few better with things like Cosmic Paladin (collection of relevant Divine Abilities) and Transcendental Monk (collection of relevant Cosmic Abilities).

The abilities section is already massive and could even end up with over 500 abilities.

 

[Sledge]

How about an Apotheosis Vol 1?
I need another hit of epicy goodness!

 

[Anabstercorian]

Hiya mate!



Technically zero, since I have all the pages in place, but not each page completed. The portfolios chapter needs the most attention. I'll also go over the abilities and epic feats section. I have actually come up with more powers while working on the Bestiary, so if anything there may even be more powers and abilities.

Forget em'. Just finish it. Publish it. Quit adding to it. Finish the damned product or you will die alone and poor and unloved and forgotten.

I also have a section on feat and ability packages, to help players and DMs create characters faster. In many ways this mimics multifaceted abilities in D&Dg like Divine Monk or Divine Paladin, which are not individual abilities but more of a collection of feats...of course I go a few better with things like Cosmic Paladin (collection of relevant Divine Abilities) and Transcendental Monk (collection of relevant Cosmic Abilities).

The abilities section is already massive and could even end up with over 500 abilities.

The feat and ability packages is a BRILLIANT idea. It would save SO much time making new characters...

 

[Campbell]

Hey Krust,

I'm wondering when Volume I of the Bestiary is going to be available on RPG Now. I'd go directly through you, but my hat of Pay pal know no limit.

 

[BSF]

I _need_ apotheosis. It just appeals too much to the detail work I want for my pantheon of deities. I also have a PC that is striving to reach that sort of power. I like to plan in advance.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

How about an Apotheosis Vol 1?
I need another hit of epicy goodness!

Apotheosis has four primary chapters - Apotheosis (How to become a god), Divinity (what happens when you become a god), Portfolios and Abilities. There are also a number of deity examples.

All the chapters are needed, dividing things any smaller just won't work.

Forget em'. Just finish it. Publish it. Quit adding to it.

You guys know me by now.

Finish the damned product or you will die alone and poor and unloved and forgotten.

Don't rush genius.

Alone, poor, unloved and forgotten I can live with. Releasing a substandard Immortals Handbook I cannot. I promise it will school any other Immortal product ever. What I don't promise is when.

The feat and ability packages is a BRILLIANT idea. It would save SO much time making new characters...

Well I can't really take the credit given that Deities & Demigods already had the idea.

Hey Krust,

Hey Campbell mate!

I'm wondering when Volume I of the Bestiary is going to be available on RPG Now. I'd go directly through you, but my hat of Pay pal know no limit.

As soon as possible.

I _need_ apotheosis. It just appeals too much to the detail work I want for my pantheon of deities. I also have a PC that is striving to reach that sort of power. I like to plan in advance.

As per the poll. Apotheosis will be my top priority after the Bestiary art is completed.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I meant to say...if you have any other suggestions for what you want to see in the Immortals Handbook (any part of it). Either post here or email me. I think I have everything covered, but you can never be too sure I suppose.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I don't suppose you are a fan of the (rarely updated) "Tales of Wyre" story hour, are you? They are my gold standard of epic level gaming.

What is distinctive about the story hour is the ambiguity in its treatment of cosmological and theological issues. E.g., take this little snippet, especially the last line:

Another issue was that of class levels. I have a general uneasiness about assigning them to outsiders, but one which is particularly marked with celestials. This is a largely philosophical objection – celestials are ‘Created,’ and are embodiments of Oronthon’s power. They are dependant wholly upon him. They do not grow in power, and there is a kind of ‘static’ or ‘unchanging’ quality about them – note that detractors would use words such as ‘stagnant’ or ‘atrophied.’ Class levels imply the idea of ‘becoming’ and celestials are more about ‘being.’

A solar with 30HD has not ‘grown’ from a solar with 22 HD – it was simply created that way, more powerful than its peers. It’s designed to demonstrate both the idea that individuation really isn’t what celestials are all about, and one of the principal dualities in the game mythos – that demons and devils, by rejecting Oronthon’s law have embraced individualism, whereas celestials, by submitting willingly to it, have overcome the desire for change. Of course, fiends have paid a heavy price for their rebellion. Devils have ultimately been denied what they originally sought – they are locked into a regime far more rigid and oppressive than the one they originally sought release from. And demons, although totally liberated, have lost all desire for everything except gratification – preferably of the immediate type – through pain, lust, anger and violence.

Perhaps these failures are indicative of the fact that it is not within the Original Nature of a celestial to exert individual will, to choose a course of action – to do anything, in fact, which is contrary to the Will of Oronthon. If they try, they are as doomed to failure as a human who jumps from a cliff and hopes to fly. Of course, others would characterize the Bright God as a vengeful, vindictive despot, who hates to see his creations assume responsibility for themselves. Either, both, or neither may be true, depending on the observer.

Would the Immortal's Handbook preserve this sort of ambiguity? Could you have different (bitterly opposed) religions who worship the same deity? Although this is obviously (and painfully) possible in our world, it would seem that it would be impossible in most D&D campaigns. A few communes should solve the question of which religion is "right" in the way it worships their common deity- perhaps it would be necessary to gate in a solar and question him/her closely. But the ambiguity is resolvable. 'Twould be nice if the Immortal's Handbook allowed certain ambiguities to be systemic and irresolvable.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I don't suppose you are a fan of the (rarely updated) "Tales of Wyre" story hour, are you? They are my gold standard of epic level gaming.

I'm afraid not. I used to read Piratecats Story Hour (a few years back this is) but that was the only Story Hour I followed for a time.

What is distinctive about the story hour is the ambiguity in its treatment of cosmological and theological issues. E.g., take this little snippet, especially the last line:

Interesting...I'll take a look.

Another issue was that of class levels. I have a general uneasiness about assigning them to outsiders, but one which is particularly marked with celestials. This is a largely philosophical objection – celestials are ‘Created,’ and are embodiments of Oronthon’s power. They are dependant wholly upon him. They do not grow in power, and there is a kind of ‘static’ or ‘unchanging’ quality about them – note that detractors would use words such as ‘stagnant’ or ‘atrophied.’ Class levels imply the idea of ‘becoming’ and celestials are more about ‘being.’

I both agree and disagree with these comments.

I also, hate the idea of class levels on Outsiders (I don't use any in the Immortals Handbook: Bestiary). However, for me the reasoning is different. The ability to gain class levels denotes a measure of free will, that is simply something Outsiders never have, and by Outsiders I am specifically refering to 'spirits', such as Demons, Devils, Angels etc.

Now that is not to say that Outsiders do not understand free will (I sort of touch on this in the IH: Bestiary with the whole idea of Dimensional Bleeding and the problems that initially caused). But Outsiders are not 'born' of free will, unlike mortals.

To get a bit more technical, mortals are born of the Dimension of Assiah, the Material Plane. This is the dimension of space and is linked to fate. It comprises of 3 dimensions (left-right, forward-back, up-down) and as such, choice, is ingrained within it.

All the other dimensions are comprised of a single dimension. Therefore true free will does not exist for its natives.

Thats why demons are Always Chaotic Evil for example.

A solar with 30HD has not ‘grown’ from a solar with 22 HD – it was simply created that way, more powerful than its peers.

I don't like this idea, it assumes total stagnation. Angels and demons are frequently destroyed, typically others will rise to fill the hole, but these replacements (or their power ups) do not simply pop up out of the blue.

As to how spirits grow, I'll explain fully in the Immortals Handbook. Although one method is similar to Highlanders 'Quickening'.

It’s designed to demonstrate both the idea that individuation really isn’t what celestials are all about, and one of the principal dualities in the game mythos – that demons and devils, by rejecting Oronthon’s law have embraced individualism, whereas celestials, by submitting willingly to it, have overcome the desire for change. Of course, fiends have paid a heavy price for their rebellion. Devils have ultimately been denied what they originally sought – they are locked into a regime far more rigid and oppressive than the one they originally sought release from. And demons, although totally liberated, have lost all desire for everything except gratification – preferably of the immediate type – through pain, lust, anger and violence.

If they truly embraced individualism they wouldn't be assigned a set alignment, so I disagree with the above conjecture. Interesting though.

Perhaps these failures are indicative of the fact that it is not within the Original Nature of a celestial to exert individual will, to choose a course of action – to do anything, in fact, which is contrary to the Will of Oronthon. If they try, they are as doomed to failure as a human who jumps from a cliff and hopes to fly. Of course, others would characterize the Bright God as a vengeful, vindictive despot, who hates to see his creations assume responsibility for themselves. Either, both, or neither may be true, depending on the observer.

Unless the being who created them (or the process that led to their creation) was itself bereft of free will.

Would the Immortal's Handbook preserve this sort of ambiguity?

Seemingly yes, although not necessarily for the same reasons.

QUOTE=Cheiromancer]Could you have different (bitterly opposed) religions who worship the same deity? Although this is obviously (and painfully) possible in our world, it would seem that it would be impossible in most D&D campaigns. [/QUOTE]

It would probably depend upon either divine cooperation or divine antipathy.

Either the deity would actively support the schism (assumes a chaotic god, probably neutral or even evil), or the deity is simply so far removed from the day to day workings of its worshippers that it doesn't really care that much (at least Intermediate power, more likely Greater power).

A few communes should solve the question of which religion is "right" in the way it worships their common deity- perhaps it would be necessary to gate in a solar and question him/her closely. But the ambiguity is resolvable. 'Twould be nice if the Immortal's Handbook allowed certain ambiguities to be systemic and irresolvable.

Ambiguity is more of a DMs caveat, rather than a systemic property.