Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Sledge]

Well you already have my money, but the more OGC the better as far as I am concerned.

 

[Zoatebix]

UK, please, please, please don't use "crippled content" like Monte does; he makes everything open but the names of the spells, feats, monsters, magic items, etc..

Well, how are you supposed to use something if you can't refer to it by name? You can't and so it might as well be closed. I don't want to derail the thread, but crippled content seems to obey the letter of the OGL by violating its spirit. It strikes me as mean.

Actually, Monte started releasing the name with the mechanics of feats starting with Legacy of the Dragons. He continuted the policy in Arcana Evolved - again, for feats at least. I'm not sure about spell names, and I haven't checked the Complete Book of Eldritch Might's declarations to see if feat or spell names are open in that book.


Sorry I opened such a huge can of worms here, guys! I should have seen the "all rights reserved" in the OGL in your PDF (he has one in there, S'Mon!) and figured that everything, for the time being, would be closed.

I forgot that the minimum open requirement was part of the d20 license and not the OGL. That's why I bothered asking at all.

 

[Alzrius]

I may make the monsters OGC even for the (official) pdf release (under the previous terms) and see how that goes.

Personally, I think that's a good idea. As you mentioned above, just having the names, stat blocks, combat information, and new mechanics (virtual size categories, density, feats), should be enough.

On a personal note, I'd really like the new epic spell, new materials, and new weapon properties and artifacts to be OGC also. They're just too cool not to be. Even WotC made their artifacts OGC.

CRGreathouse was right when he said that d20-compatible material constitues what I termed "non-original work". The fact that these monsters are d20 at all means you need to have this be at least OGL, if not d20. That alone though would be enough to fill the 5% minimum in the d20 License.

I also think that having it be open for the official PDF release is a good idea. I don't mean to throw stones, but at the current rate of progress, I seriously wonder if 4E won't be out by the time the print IH arrives.

That said, I really agree that "crippled content" is not at all the way to go. The IH is (I think) going to seriously set a new standard for epic gaming in d20, and it seems a real shame not to let the community take advantage of that. None of your IP would be taken, and they would have to credit your work. I'm honestly somewhat confused about why you wouldn't want this to be OGC?

Realistically, almost none of the OGC out there gets used anyway.

On a final note, did you get that email I sent you with some parts of the Bestiary that I felt were wrong (or was otherwise unsure about)?

 

[CRGreathouse]

That said, I really agree that "crippled content" is not at all the way to go. The IH is (I think) going to seriously set a new standard for epic gaming in d20, and it seems a real shame not to let the community take advantage of that. None of your IP would be taken, and they would have to credit your work. I'm honestly somewhat confused about why you wouldn't want this to be OGC?

There's financial sense behind this too -- if enough of the book is open that people can make their own IH-compatible works (say, giving the OGC Deities of The Faithful IH stats once Apotheosis is out) will drive the sales of your core books (Apotheosis, Grimoire, Chronicle, and the Bestiaries). It's the same model WotC used with the SRD.

 

[S'mon]

CRGreathouse was right when he said that d20-compatible material constitues what I termed "non-original work".

Don't say that, it makes the lawyer in me wince in pain.
(Even if material is 'derivative' it's still 'original' and thus the creator of the derivative work still has a copyright in it. Furthermore 'derivative work' in the legal sense has a narrow meaning which does not encompass "I based this rules supplement on pre-existing game X" - see Allen case)

 

[S'mon]

There's financial sense behind this too -- if enough of the book is open that people can make their own IH-compatible works (say, giving the OGC Deities of The Faithful IH stats once Apotheosis is out) will drive the sales of your core books (Apotheosis, Grimoire, Chronicle, and the Bestiaries). It's the same model WotC used with the SRD.

I agree with this - making much of the IH OGC should result in it being the 'industry standard' for high-power deity-level gaming, which should drive IH sales.

 

[S'mon]

Sorry I opened such a huge can of worms here, guys! I should have seen the "all rights reserved" in the OGL in your PDF (he has one in there, S'Mon!)

D'oh! So this can of worms was a storm in a teacup.

I ass-u-me'd it had been left out because it was in the greyed out text.
In fact the OGL is on the last page & includes:

"
15. COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0a Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
d20 System rules and Content Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.;
authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, and Skip Williams, based on original
material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
The Immortals Handbook, Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary
Volume I, Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary Volume II, Immortals
Handbook: Grimoire and the Immortals Index. Copyright 2001-2005
Craig Cochrane. All rights reserved. "

So the existing release is already 100% OGL compliant and there's no problem at all as far as I can see.

 

[S'mon]

CRGreathouse was right when he said that d20-compatible material constitues what I termed "non-original work". The fact that these monsters are d20 at all means you need to have this be at least OGL, if not d20.

No. Game-rules compatibility as such does not equal derivative work or any other kind of copyright infringement. & NOBODY _needs_ to use the d20 license unless they are putting the d20 trademark on their release. However there is no need to worry about any of this anyway as the IH uses the OGL!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

You guys will be the death of me, I swear!

I had it right all along and you were panicking me with this stuff!

Okay, just to clarify, if I want to use the d20 trademark, I will have to include a section on what is Product Identity and what is Open Content (which I will probably do with the official release). But until then its all fine, right?

By the way, I did get your email Alzrius, I will be correcting any mistakes for the official release thanks...although a few things:

1. Its Hero-deity first, then Quasi-deity in the IH. For me the clue is in the name; 'HERO-deity', as in it comes after hero. I don't care what 1st Edition said, it makes more sense this way.

2. Ravana is an Intermediate Power, not a Lesser power. He defeated the Hindu triad, hes one of the most powerful beings in Hindu cosmology. I don't care what 2nd Edition said, it makes more sense this way.

 

[Zoatebix]

Another word on Monte and crippled content: I took a quick glance at the declarations in the Complete Book of Eldritch Might and it looks like he's reversed his stance on spell names. I didn't read as thouroughly as I would have liked, though, because I need to go tutor a co-worker and then work all day - pressed for time and all that.