• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Another Immortals Handbook thread

What do you wish from the Immortals Handbook?

  • I want to see rules for playing Immortals

    Votes: 63 73.3%
  • I want to see more Epic Monsters

    Votes: 33 38.4%
  • I want to see Artifacts and epic Magic Items

    Votes: 38 44.2%
  • I want to see truly Epic Spells and Immortal Magic

    Votes: 50 58.1%
  • I want Immortal Adventures and Campaigns Ideas

    Votes: 44 51.2%
  • I want to see a Pantheon (or two) detailed

    Votes: 21 24.4%
  • I want to see something else (post below)

    Votes: 3 3.5%
  • I don't like Epic/Immortal gaming

    Votes: 4 4.7%

  • Poll closed .
Cold dealing strength and dex damage. NO! Ability damaging things are already dangerously easy to abuse. I'm not sure I really agree with how you even worked out the heat information at all. At the very least balance heat and cold with the understanding that 0 degrees kelvin would be an incredible level of damage.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

First off, that is a gorgeous chart. Mmm, lovely.

I'm iffy on the cold damage tweak. Cold damage certainly shouldn't be so easy to utterly ignore... At least, I'd think not. I'll talk to some of the chemistry professors around town, and run this by some of my technical friends. It's an interesting re-envisioning of temperature effects - I'm confident in your ability to make it balanced, but less so on whether or not it's a good idea to do at all. Upper Krust once described the Cold Fire, which gave physics the finger and plunged well below absolute zero. I propose you take that route here - it's more appropriate to fantastical magic and involves less revising.

*whipcrack* Back to work!
 

In the D&D world, Cold is elemental as far as I can tell. It's an energy type, opposed to Fire. That suggests to me that it isn't lack of heat, with an absolute zero, but actually negative heat... less than absolute zero. All of the Cold spells and cold dealing weapons and such would thus be below absolute zero, but the weaker cold effects would take place in a much shorter duration, like you describe with lightning and fireball and such. Frost weapons likewise... during a hit, there isn't much contact, or perhaps it does damage and freezes moisture in such a way as to insulate against further contact until another hit is made. That sort of thing.
 

Well 0 degrees is theoretically where everything stops moving. It is a complete lack of energy. As you get closer and closer to zero I could see exponential damage increases. This level of damage is the kind that could destroy quite a lot.
 

Hi Guys! :)

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't planning on working on temperature (other than removing energy immunity itself), but I just got carried away with myself and before I knew it I was knee deep in physics websites checking a lot of this stuff out.

I know ability score damaging effects can be exploited, but this is me remember, you know I have the balance thing nailed. What I don't think I included (it will be in one of the later articles) is the revision for ability damage/drain immunity, which is now Ability Drain Resistance.

Personally I think this revision to cold is far more interesting. Partly inspired by a scene in the new Dungeons & Dragons movie: Wrath of the Dragon God, and I am sure we have all seen Terminator 2. Its incredible that in D&D, no amount of cold damage will actually freeze a target. However, I am not trying to push this through, so consider this merely an optional idea - although the removal of absolutes is going to be something intrinsic to the IH.

But do the rest of you not like the idea that cold is actually more than simply hit points damage? I remember watching the D&D cartoons of the 80's and seeing Warduke's Icesword freeze the Dungeon Master - that was cool (no pun intended). The idea that cold can induce hypothermia, frostbite, freeze a target or even crystallise them, to me is very interesting, far more so than simply dealing another 'x'd6 damage.

Also we cannot exponentially increase cold damage the further down in temperature we go. If Absolute Zero was 1000d6 damage (or whatever) then that would mean that to survive in space you would need a humongous amount of cold resistance, which isn't practical.

Obviously we can continue to use the hit point damage, and keep escalating the temperature beyond absolute zero. But in doing that you remove, in my opinion, what makes cold interesting, and relegate it to just another type of damage.
 

Hey U_K! :)

Nice article, absolutes have long vexed me to be honest. I'm glad to see you taking the bull by the horns.

I also love this line (citing from your article):

Okay, a few things about the above table. Planck Temperature is the postulated temperature that occured a split second after the big bang, so consider that your unofficial upper limit.

:cool:

It is the "unofficial" limit w/in the base dimensions that is. :)
 

A very interesting take on the absolutes. Regarding the freezing with cold damage I can say, that at least EoMR has an option to use a side effect of the Ice element, which encases the victim in ice. But that doesn't do more damage or is dependent from damage, so it could be changed to your variant.

Anyways, I've found in your articles two errors. The first one is in the epic feats article, where you haven't linked the vorpal revision correctly. The second one is in your absolutes article, where you haven't explained, why ability scores are italicized.

Edit: I've overlooked in your DSA article, that your solution to Extra Energy Immunity is to replace with itself. :confused:
 
Last edited:

I think Cold should still deal damage, but also apply an enhancement penalty to Strength/Dex (not damage). The reason for this: if you're cold, you start shivering and get weak. If you warm up, though, the effects go away and you're fine. Also, this doesn't make cold weapons/creatures overly powerful. Don't forget, ability damage only heals at the rate of 1 point/day unless otherwise stated, or you use spells. And, some wiseass will simply throw down a lesser restoration on a frozen character, healing all the abliity damage and magicall unfreezing him. If you make it an enhancement penalty, it's harder to get rid of without using the rules below.

Supernatural cold effects, though, could deal ability damage. I'm talking things like epic spells, the depths of space, or things like that, not just a dragon's breath weapon (unless it's special somehow).

Also, I don't know where you got Wis as the determining stat - it should be Con.

I don't agree with your frostbite rules, though I can see where you're coming from. Not everyone who suffers frostbite loses extremities, though - if you're lucky, you get away with losing some skin, which eventually heals. Let's say that any time you suffer damage that reduces the ability score below half, you have to make a Con check (DC 15). Each time you fail the check, you take one point of Con damage. If one score is reduced to 0, the DC increases to 20 and any further failed checks become Con drain.

I think what you need are stacking effects, like they do with fear, panic, frightened, et al. - let's say some unlucky PCs are out in severe cold long enough to get really chilled (new effect; occurs when Str/Dex exceed half Con). They manages to make it to shelter in an old abandoned hut, start a fire, and get some warmth (but not enough to reverse all the penalties). Then, say, a frost giant attacks them, tearing the roof of their hut and exposing them to the cold. The defeat the giant (and his winter wolves), but have suffered more cold damage, bringing them down to the hypothermia level (or, in the unfortunate fighter's case, frostbite).

Now, the problem is, we have no rules for any of these effects. How much heat does it take to negate the penalties incurred from hypothermia? How do you go about uncrystallizing someone without melting them into a puddle of bloody slush? Freezing, BTW, is not just paralyzation, IMO - if you go by that definition, a simple remove paralysis will reverse the effect.

My suggestion: One hour at safe temperature negates 2 points of penalties. One hour at very hot negates 4 points. Anything above that would simply deal fire damage as before, because going from one extreme to the other is a bad thing in general. Additional effects, like a fire, blankets, warm water, etc. can serve to negate additional points (a small fire in a cold room/cave would be considered safe temp - 2 points/hour, while a larger fire in a warm room would likely push the temp up to very hot - 4 points/hour). The problem with crystallization is that ability scores don't go to negatives - 0 is the limit. This is easily fixed, though... the frozen condition occurs when either Str or Dex is reduced to 0. Crystallization occurs when both are reduced to 0. Someone who's been frozen or crystallized and is brought back by nonmagical means (i.e., building a fire nearby) must either a) receive a heal spell after the first hour, or b) make a Con check (DC 15 for frozen, or DC 20 for crystallization) after the first hour or die from massive system shock. Being frozen and brought back is hard on the system, and if someone doesn't do it right (too much heat too fast, e.g.) it could easily kill the person.

Now, someone will inevitably try to drop a fireball or burning hands on the person to melt him; this could work, to a point - say, the person takes half/quarter damage (for chiling/hypothermia) or quarter/no damage (for freezing), but is reduced by one level of freezing. it's a crude method, but it would work, I guess. Someone who's been crystallized, however, has serious problems - he has the Vulnerablity to Fire ability. Additionally, if he's reduced to 0 hp through application of fire, he melts into a puddle of bloody slush, and cannot be brought back by anything short of a true res.

And of course, you could create new spells: warming hands, for instance - the caster's touch reduces the victim's freezing state by one (from hypothermia to chilling, e.g., reducing the penalties). Crystallize - flash-freezes the target (this one would likely be epic, or at least 8th-9th level). Hypothermia - an area of effect that chills the air, affecting all within it. Hmm... I might steal these for myself. :)
 

Hi UK!

I like your replacement of immunities with (progressively higher) resistances. I think that should be standard. What do you think of SKR's idea that (say) a paladin's immunity to fear is replaced with a +10 to saves vs fear? Can this be generalized for immunity to mental effects, etc? Maybe add divine rank to the +10 bonus?

I don't care for the temperature chart, though.

First of all, I don't think that, when it comes to forms of energy, that DnD physics is the same as real life physics. Almost all forms of energy IRL is reducible to molecular motion or its lack. But AFAIK DnD doesn't even have molecules; its physics is more or less Aristotelian, and there are at least half a dozen distinct and irreducible forms of energy. Mixing up the two kinds of physics will produce a muddle.

Second, I think the listed damage for a persistent fireball or lightning bolt is far too high. I recall that in the old manual of the planes, fireballs and the like would persist in Limbo, and would do their base damage each round. Not 2000 times their base damage.

Third, I don't like the substitution or association of ability damage with cold damage. If you try to match up DnD physics too closely with real life physics, you'll get a muddle. (See objection number 1). You could make a "critical effects" table for when people roll a 1 or something on their save, or they take cold damage on a critical hit, but please don't do it for regular damage.
 

Excrcise:
Craig has lightning dealing 500d6 damage/round. Now the typical energy released by a bolt of lightning is 10^10 joules, the equivilent of about 2 tons of TNT. Based on the damage he has for TNT, how muich weaker is a 5d6 lightning bolt than a natural lightning bolt?
 
Last edited:

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top