Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya mate!

Nice article, absolutes have long vexed me to be honest. I'm glad to see you taking the bull by the horns.

If someone doesn't I think the problem could be the death knell for epic/immortal gaming. Its that serious a problem.

I also love this line (citing from your article):

Always happy to please.

It is the "unofficial" limit w/in the base dimensions that is.

Exactly. I suspect colliding universes would create a bigger bang.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Rulemaster dude!

A very interesting take on the absolutes. Regarding the freezing with cold damage I can say, that at least EoMR has an option to use a side effect of the Ice element, which encases the victim in ice. But that doesn't do more damage or is dependent from damage, so it could be changed to your variant.

Like I say, I am only considering the cold stuff as an optional idea, so people can do with it as they wish.

Anyways, I've found in your articles two errors. The first one is in the epic feats article, where you haven't linked the vorpal revision correctly.

Thats covered in Part Two of the article which deals with critical hits. Apologies if I have created the link already but not uploaded the page in question.

The second one is in your absolutes article, where you haven't explained, why ability scores are italicized.

Examples and spell names are italicized, as far as I can tell nothing else.

Edit: I've overlooked in your DSA article, that your solution to Extra Energy Immunity is to replace with itself.

DOH! Thats meant to be Extra Energy Resistance.

I should probably give the epic feats and salient divine abilities articles another going over just to be on the safe side - I am sure there are a number of mistakes in there that I have missed.

 

[Zoatebix]

If Absolute Zero was 1000d6 damage (or whatever) then that would mean that to survive in space you would need a humongous amount of cold resistance, which isn't practical.

Just a note on this - the only way to lose heat in space (a vacuum) is through radiation. There's nothing there to carry your heat away through convection or conduction. In other words - you're very well insulated in space. The universe is one enormous dewar bottle (thermos) - only without the bottle part - helping you keep your heat in. Radition is a MUCH bigger problem then cold. I mean, it has to be by definition because the cold isn't a problem.

I'm almost done catching up on this thread, I just had to stop and comment.
-George

 

[Alzrius]

Hey U_K!

I wanted to bring up a few things about that new article.

First, a link on the front of the website would be great. I had to go hunting through the various sections to find it.

Also, a few things on the heat table seem somewhat...off to me. I don't think lava should be hotter than the Plane of Fire. And it seems suspect that a lightning bolt and the sun's corona are hotter than the sun's surface...of course, those last two may just be that I need to look up the science more.

I also don't think that the absolute immunities are quite the dire threat to epic/immortal gaming SKR (and you) seem to be saying they are, or the problem would have come up a while ago. Epic/immortal gaming can get along fine (I think) while still having absolutes there...especially since characters will like to have some weaknesses that they don't have to worry about anymore. It worked fine for undead creatures, after all.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

I think Cold should still deal damage, but also apply an enhancement penalty to Strength/Dex (not damage).

Interesting idea. Very interesting...the penalty rather than damage idea that is.

The reason for this: if you're cold, you start shivering and get weak. If you warm up, though, the effects go away and you're fine.

Thats true, up to a given point.

Also, this doesn't make cold weapons/creatures overly powerful.

I thought I had my optional idea fairly well balanced.

Don't forget, ability damage only heals at the rate of 1 point/day unless otherwise stated, or you use spells. And, some wiseass will simply throw down a lesser restoration on a frozen character, healing all the abliity damage and magicall unfreezing him. If you make it an enhancement penalty, it's harder to get rid of without using the rules below.

Thats true.

Supernatural cold effects, though, could deal ability damage. I'm talking things like epic spells, the depths of space, or things like that, not just a dragon's breath weapon (unless it's special somehow).

I like the idea that a dragons breath weapon 'could' freeze someone.

Also, I don't know where you got Wis as the determining stat - it should be Con.

I was addressing the mental effects of hypothermia, as such surely wisdom is appropriate.

I don't agree with your frostbite rules, though I can see where you're coming from. Not everyone who suffers frostbite loses extremities, though - if you're lucky, you get away with losing some skin, which eventually heals. Let's say that any time you suffer damage that reduces the ability score below half, you have to make a Con check (DC 15). Each time you fail the check, you take one point of Con damage. If one score is reduced to 0, the DC increases to 20 and any further failed checks become Con drain.

I like the idea of some sort of a check.

I think what you need are stacking effects, like they do with fear, panic, frightened, et al.

I am working on this as part of the saving throw solution. Consider the cold idea work in progress in this regard - although you can see the seeds of it already - each effect has four stages as it were, with the 3rd removing you from the game and the 4th proving fatal.

- let's say some unlucky PCs are out in severe cold long enough to get really chilled (new effect; occurs when Str/Dex exceed half Con). They manages to make it to shelter in an old abandoned hut, start a fire, and get some warmth (but not enough to reverse all the penalties). Then, say, a frost giant attacks them, tearing the roof of their hut and exposing them to the cold. The defeat the giant (and his winter wolves), but have suffered more cold damage, bringing them down to the hypothermia level (or, in the unfortunate fighter's case, frostbite).

I like it.

Now, the problem is, we have no rules for any of these effects.

We will have by the time I get Part 4 of the Absolutes series finished.

How much heat does it take to negate the penalties incurred from hypothermia? How do you go about uncrystallizing someone without melting them into a puddle of bloody slush?

I would say Crystallisation spells death for any being without regeneration most likely.

Freezing, BTW, is not just paralyzation, IMO - if you go by that definition, a simple remove paralysis will reverse the effect.

Exactly its 'freezing' not paralysis, but I needed to give people an idea of what I meant by freezing.

My suggestion: One hour at safe temperature negates 2 points of penalties. One hour at very hot negates 4 points. Anything above that would simply deal fire damage as before, because going from one extreme to the other is a bad thing in general.

According to my studies of frostbite, you should never treat it with anything more than lukewarm water, never 'hot' water. So my guess is anything over the safe temperature will cause 50% extra damage to those with hypothermia, frostbite, freezing. Crystallisation also applies the Fragile Sub-type.

Additional effects, like a fire, blankets, warm water, etc. can serve to negate additional points (a small fire in a cold room/cave would be considered safe temp - 2 points/hour, while a larger fire in a warm room would likely push the temp up to very hot - 4 points/hour). The problem with crystallization is that ability scores don't go to negatives - 0 is the limit. This is easily fixed, though... the frozen condition occurs when either Str or Dex is reduced to 0. Crystallization occurs when both are reduced to 0. Someone who's been frozen or crystallized and is brought back by nonmagical means (i.e., building a fire nearby) must either a) receive a heal spell after the first hour, or b) make a Con check (DC 15 for frozen, or DC 20 for crystallization) after the first hour or die from massive system shock. Being frozen and brought back is hard on the system, and if someone doesn't do it right (too much heat too fast, e.g.) it could easily kill the person.

What about, the target is crystallised if a single attack drops them to 0 Strength or Dexterity. After all, continual cold won't crystallise someone, only truly severe cold would do that.

Now, someone will inevitably try to drop a fireball or burning hands on the person to melt him; this could work, to a point - say, the person takes half/quarter damage (for chiling/hypothermia) or quarter/no damage (for freezing), but is reduced by one level of freezing. it's a crude method, but it would work, I guess. Someone who's been crystallized, however, has serious problems - he has the Vulnerablity to Fire ability. Additionally, if he's reduced to 0 hp through application of fire, he melts into a puddle of bloody slush, and cannot be brought back by anything short of a true res.

I think you could treat the cold damaged victim as if having the cold subtype for the purposes of fire/heat damaging them.

And of course, you could create new spells: warming hands, for instance - the caster's touch reduces the victim's freezing state by one (from hypothermia to chilling, e.g., reducing the penalties). Crystallize - flash-freezes the target (this one would likely be epic, or at least 8th-9th level). Hypothermia - an area of effect that chills the air, affecting all within it. Hmm... I might steal these for myself.

Oi!

I'm curious, does the Frostburn supplement have nothing like this in it? (I don't own that supplement myself)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi UK!

Hey there Borlon!

I like your replacement of immunities with (progressively higher) resistances.

Thanks.

I think that should be standard. What do you think of SKR's idea that (say) a paladin's immunity to fear is replaced with a +10 to saves vs fear? Can this be generalized for immunity to mental effects, etc?

I think a +10 bonus is probably the simplest solution, although at the back of my head theres a voice telling me it should be +20. But I am not sure which is best yet.

Maybe add divine rank to the +10 bonus?

Deities already gain a 'divine bonus' to every roll. Only those with portfolios or the appropriate divine abilities should 'freely' get more than that.

I don't care for the temperature chart, though.

First of all, I don't think that, when it comes to forms of energy, that DnD physics is the same as real life physics.

True, but that doesn''t mean we can't try to apply them.

Almost all forms of energy IRL is reducible to molecular motion or its lack. But AFAIK DnD doesn't even have molecules; its physics is more or less Aristotelian, and there are at least half a dozen distinct and irreducible forms of energy. Mixing up the two kinds of physics will produce a muddle.

I agree, which is why I only presented the cold idea as optional.

Second, I think the listed damage for a persistent fireball or lightning bolt is far too high. I recall that in the old manual of the planes, fireballs and the like would persist in Limbo, and would do their base damage each round. Not 2000 times their base damage.

You could be right. There are a lot of variables swimming around that I may have either miscalculated or simply not addressed (like molecule density - lightning is more dense than fire for instance).

Third, I don't like the substitution or association of ability damage with cold damage. If you try to match up DnD physics too closely with real life physics, you'll get a muddle. (See objection number 1). You could make a "critical effects" table for when people roll a 1 or something on their save, or they take cold damage on a critical hit, but please don't do it for regular damage.

Well I like the idea Kerrick suggested whereby it would be a penalty rather than actual damage.

However, remember again, this revision to cold damage is optional.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Excrcise:
Craig has lightning dealing 500d6 damage/round. Now the typical energy released by a bolt of lightning is 10^10 joules, the equivilent of about 2 tons of TNT. Based on the damage he has for TNT, how muich weaker is a 5d6 lightning bolt than a natural lightning bolt?

Given that people survive being struck by lightning bolts but not 2 tons of TNT theres a definite discrepancy somewhere.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Zoatebix matey!

Just a note on this - the only way to lose heat in space (a vacuum) is through radiation. There's nothing there to carry your heat away through convection or conduction. In other words - you're very well insulated in space. The universe is one enormous dewar bottle (thermos) - only without the bottle part - helping you keep your heat in. Radition is a MUCH bigger problem then cold. I mean, it has to be by definition because the cold isn't a problem.

I read that too during my research - however I just wasn't sure how to implement it in the short term.

I'm almost done catching up on this thread, I just had to stop and comment.

Appreciate the help mate!

 

[CRGreathouse]

• Frost: Now deals either 1 point of Str Damage or 1 point of Dex damage (50% chance of either) upon scoring a critical hit. Market Price still +1 bonus.
• Icy Burst: Now deals 1 point of Str and Dex damage upon scoring a successful critical hit. Market Price now +3 bonus.
• Icy Blast: Now deals 1 point of Str and Dex damage per hit. This damage is multiplied upon a successful critical hit by the weapons critical damage multiplier. Market Price still +6 bonus.

I trust we can look forward to an article or rant that says that Wounding is overpowered, then? It may be better rated as a +3, but it's certainly stronger than your Icy Burst.

 

[Zoatebix]

Given that people survive being struck by lightning bolts but not 2 tons of TNT theres a definite discrepancy somewhere.

Reality check numero dos, this time from the wikipedia: being directly struck by lighting can often be not as bad as being near a ground strike.

Lightning injuries

Nearly 2000 persons per year in the world are injured by lightning strikes, and between 25 to 33 per cent of those struck die. Lightning injuries result from three factors: electrical damage, intense heat, and the mechanical energy which these generate. While sudden death is common due to the huge voltage of a lightning strike, survivors often fare better than victims of other electrical injuries caused by a more prolonged application of lesser voltage.

People may be hit in several different ways. In a direct hit the electrical charge strikes the victim first. Counterintuitively, if the victim's skin resistance is high enough, much of the current will flash around the skin or clothing to the ground, resulting in a surprisingly benign outcome. Splash hits occur when lightning effectively bounces off a nearby object and strikes the victim en route to ground. Ground strikes, in which the bolt lands near the victim and is conducted through the victim via his or her connection to the ground (such as through the feet), can cause great damage.

The most critical injuries are to the circulatory system, the lungs, and the central nervous system. Many victims suffer immediate cardiac arrest and will not survive without prompt emergency care, which, it is worth noting, is safe to administer, due to the fact that the victim will not retain any electrical charge after the lightning has struck (of course, the helper could be struck by a separate bolt of lightning in the vicinity). Others incur myocardial infarction and various cardiac arrhythmias, either of which can be rapidly fatal as well. The intense heat generated by a lightning strike can cause lung damage, and the chest can be damaged by the mechanical force of rapidly expanding heated air. Either the electrical or the mechanical force can result in loss of consciousness, which is very common immediately after a strike. Amnesia and confusion of varying duration often result as well. A complete physical examination by paramedics or physicians may reveal ruptured eardrums, and ocular cataracts may develop, sometimes more than a year after an otherwise uneventful recovery.

My physics teacher in high school survived at least one lightning strike (I only heard the story from him about one). He was far away enough that he mostly had to deal with the explosion - I think it's cause by all ionized air recombining. He got thrown some distance away from where the strike hit.