Another Paladin Thread: Throw Rocks!

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Thanatos said:
Did the paladin (character) know the result was going to be to let the orc go and agree with that course of action?
I don't honestly know. We were discussing the idea of releasing the prisoner during (and after) the interrogation, but we did not make any explicit agreements before the dispute broke out.

Thanatos said:
I guess you could also ask, did the player know the orc was going to be released and did the player say anything to the contrary?
Once again ... I'm unsure about personal thoughts. However, I do not recall the paladin PC saying anything about the orc ... until we already had the information we needed.

Thanatos said:
Was the conversation with the orc in orcish and does the paladin speak it?
It was in both Common and Orc. The paladin does not speak Orc, but there was nothing that we said in Orc that we did not also repeat (or paraphrase) in Common.

For the record, three of the five party members speak fluent Orc ... including Nigel and Mival.

-Samir
 

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The Thayan Menace said:
Thanatos said:
Did the paladin (character) know the result was going to be to let the orc go and agree with that course of action?
I don't honestly know. We were discussing the idea of releasing the prisoner during (and after) the interrogation, but we did not make any explicit agreements before the dispute broke out.
That's a "no," then. The paladin did not (explicitly) agree to let the orc go.

So much for all the people screaming about how the paladin "broke her word," or "acted chaotically."
 

That's a "no," then. The paladin did not (explicitly) agree to let the orc go.
true but they had to know everyone else had planed to let them go they should have spoken out its a breach of trust between the pcs and as i said earler small staps is all it takes to lead down the path of the great fall
 

Clarification:

Vegepygmy said:
That's a "no," then.
Only if her player says so. I can't read minds, and I don't run other people's characters.

However, I have notified my pal Dewey (a.k.a. "Wyndess Faithbringer") about this thread. He can speak for his paladin, if he chooses to do so.

-Samir
 

Further Clarification:

The paladin interfered after we had finished the interrogation, and while we were figuring out what to do next.

Instead of discussing the matter with us, she stepped forward with a drawn sword and demanded the orc's death.

-Samir
 

Vegepygmy said:
That's a "no," then. The paladin did not (explicitly) agree to let the orc go.

So much for all the people screaming about how the paladin "broke her word," or "acted chaotically."
Having gotten the information they needed, the group turned to their prisoner.

'As our group agreed, in exchange for your life and freedom, and your promise to cease your evil deeds, we will release you to take care of your children. Take care to see this example of mercy and raise your children to see the world through eyes not shaded by evil,' the bard pronounced diplomatically, as usually.

'Oh thank you sirs! You are truly merciful--thank you!' the pitiful orc blubbered, as the bard released him.

Grinning with a twinkle in her eye, Keryth drew her sword and stabbed the orc in the back. As the colour drained from its face, eyes wide in a betrayed look, it could only stammer out 'But...you promised...'

'I promised you nothing orc,' Keryth smiles, satisfied, as she pulls her blade clear and cleans in on the dying orc's clothes and laughs, 'My comrades agreed to let you go without harm. I, on the other hand, never said a word. By the letter of the law, I have kept our bargain. Abyss take you, wretch!'



Nope--she didn't break her word. Using letter of the law to get what you want without regards to others (the other PCs and the orc in this case) is Lawful Evil.
 
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01. The orc prisoner was knocked out with a sleep spell and subdual damage from a cudgel.
02. He woke up in captivity.

03. The party discussed its concerns before (and during) questioning ... in the Damaran tongue.
Did these concerns include what to do with the orc after the questioning was done (in other words, kill or let go)?
04. The paladin did not voice any objections at this point.
If what to do after was discussed - and "let the orc go" was the conclusion reached by those discussing - did the paladin
1)say nothing/give no input at all one way or another during the discussion about what to do after the interrogation was completed?
2)suggest the orc should be dispatched after questioning - and then say nothing when others didn't agree?

Also was she the only one who voiced no objections?

05. Nigel and Mival then conversed in Aragrakh, regarding interrogation strategy.
06. The paladin was angered by our "clandestine" discussion, but said nothing about the orc or the Q&A session.
07. Without knowing our reason for speaking Aragrakh, she verbally threatened me for talking " ... behind her back."
08. I stood my ground, and asked if she was prepared to strike me down. She backed off.
Why did you and another player decide it was necessary for your characters to discuss interrogation strategy in a language not all the other characters could understand?

09. We resumed the interrogation without protest; the orc told us everything he knew about the citadel.

10. The paladin did not take action against the orc ... until we were about to release him.
I get the impression that the paladin's player had already decided what was going to happen to the orc when your characters were done interrogating and didn't tell you because you had had your characters leave her character out with your private discussion.

IMO the paladin still didn't do anything wrong (as in evil) but may have been a little chaotic (depending on the exact way things were played out). No one ever states the mage is evil because the fireball she just cast on the BBEG kills all his helpless, unconcious minions the party waded through to get to him. In a game where the good guys routinely kill the bad guys - I have no problem with paladins offing the bad guys.

By the way, our paladin is Tyrran ... although she venerates the entire Triad.
It may be that the paladin's player has been looking at this from the description of the Tyrran faith from Faiths and Pantheons

"Tyrrans tend to view all affairs in clear cut moral terms, preferring to see the world ordered by just laws that provide the greatest benefit to all. They tend toward intolerance, sometimes violently so, and seldom tolerate mockery, parody, or questioning of their faith.

Clerics of Tyr bring law to lawless lands, often serving as judge, jury, and executioner. Without a civilized legal code with which to guide their judgements, they often default to a doctrine roughly equivalent to an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
 

Sejs said:
Depends on the type of paladin.

For every paladin that acts as the firm hand of mercy, there's another who takes up the mantle of the unwavering fist of justice.

And they're both equally right.


So no, your paladin was okay, they just follow the 'suffer no evil to live' road more than not.

QFT

Seriously, My philosophy is that "The paladin is usually right." Why? Because my game usually isn't about finding what the players did wrong. So I don't sweat it. It could be a fun sticking point and discussion area amongst the party members, and if I want to interject an opionion, I've got plenty of routes to do it. This situation is, at most, a road sign. And if it's a long dark road we've been on for a while, well maybe it's time to take a look.

But ultimately, I'm one of those folks who feels that a paladin should only lose his or her abilities if the player agrees to it. Seriously. If the player disagrees, than pushing it is only going to bring about strife. And if I feel stongly enough to push for it, and they feel strongly enough to keep protesting the the game is probably in the middle of some problems anyway. Ultimately, a loss of paladinhood needs to be fun, or it pretty much goes against the reason that I game.

To the original poster: Do you think it'd be more fun for bad things to happen to the paladin, or for you and she to have an argument about her actions?
 

robertsconley said:
Sure that handy dandy Detect Evil remember. In the example given the paladin had more than enough rounds to get through read on the orc.

That asks the question "Is an Evil alignment justification for execution?", which in turn comes back to "What does an Evil alignment represent?"

If alignment represents outlook, rather than a record of past deeds (and I maintain, based on the Helm of Opposite Alignment, that it does), then someone can have an Evil alignment without ever having done anything wrong. Do they merit immediate execution?

If alignment is a record of past deeds, then in our Xena example, a woman who would be a powerful force for Good would be executed because of her past, while someone who had performed many good deeds in the past but who is now a psychotic murderer would get a pass because his evil acts haven't tipped the scales past neutral yet.

-Hyp.
 

Interrogation Conversation

Abraxas said:
Did these concerns include what to do with the orc after the questioning was done (in other words, kill or let go)?
Yes, but to be fair we had not firmly decided on a course of action. However, no one openly suggested punishment or execution.

In fact, no one even threatened the prisoner ... until the paladin stepped in (after the interrogation was over).

-Samir
 

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