Another Paladin Thread: Throw Rocks!

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Well, I'm one of the people who did not like the Paladin's actions in the OP, but all I can say to the example of your Paladin is Rock On! There was nothing unlawful or ungood about your act--the only thing you might maybe have come close to infringing was the fight with honour thing, and I would say not really on that either. Though you strangled him, you carried yourself honourably and stood to wait for the guards rather than running off.

In my own defense, my first PC was a Paladin. I wrote him up out of our brand new player's handbook with this REALLY COOL fire demon statue and dead lizards on the cover. I played him from like 1979 to 1985 when I left for the Army. LOL I've had a LOT of practice at running Paladins. I can do the "THOU MUST OBEY!" Paladins, and the "DEATH TO THE INFEDEL!" Paladins, and the prostitute chasing, beer drinking, dice rolling killing machine Paladin.

 

[Rystil Arden]

In my own defense, my first PC was a Paladin. I wrote him up out of our brand new player's handbook with this REALLY COOL fire demon statue and dead lizards on the cover. I played him from like 1979 to 1985 when I left for the Army. LOL I've had a LOT of practice at running Paladins. I can do the "THOU MUST OBEY!" Paladins, and the "DEATH TO THE INFEDEL!" Paladins, and the prostitute chasing, beer drinking, dice rolling killing machine Paladin.

Right, and I think you captured the essence of the paladin exceptionally well in those actions, despite the way he had to kill that corrupt priest from an ambush by strangling.

However, I'm hoping you can see the huge difference with the OP's problem paladin. She did not comport herself that way at all. If she had killed the orc immediately, that's fine. Waiting for it to be questioned and then murdering it after her group has already juiced it for all the information and it swore to repent and become good (and as far as her Sense Motive knew it was telling the truth) was not at all--it was manipulative in a "wring this lowly creature for all possible value first before I destroy it" sense as well as completely direspectful for the rest of the party and their modus operandi.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

However, I'm hoping you can see the huge difference with the OP's problem paladin. She did not comport herself that way at all. If she had killed the orc immediately, that's fine. Waiting for it to be questioned and then murdering it after her group has already juiced it for all the information and it swore to repent and become good (and as far as her Sense Motive knew it was telling the truth) was not at all--it was manipulative in a "wring this lowly creature for all possible value first before I destroy it" sense as well as completely direspectful for the rest of the party and their modus operandi.

There's quite a difference, I can agree.

See, my Paladin's wouldn't do that, because of a very big thing that can happen.

That orc made a vow to become good, to repent, had been questioned, then murdered.

The Paladin's own God may raise the orc from the dead, or perhaps the orc would become undead and be indestructable unless the Paladin commits penance.

In a world of magic, those killed like that have a nasty habit of shrugging off the dirt of their shallow grave, having their eyes light up with vile fire, and having the chill of the grave strengthen thier muscles.

I ran into a Revenant once before. I don't want to repeat THAT experience.

 

[Rystil Arden]

There's quite a difference, I can agree.

See, my Paladin's wouldn't do that, because of a very big thing that can happen.

That orc made a vow to become good, to repent, had been questioned, then murdered.

The Paladin's own God may raise the orc from the dead, or perhaps the orc would become undead and be indestructable unless the Paladin commits penance.

In a world of magic, those killed like that have a nasty habit of shrugging off the dirt of their shallow grave, having their eyes light up with vile fire, and having the chill of the grave strengthen thier muscles.

I ran into a Revenant once before. I don't want to repeat THAT experience.

A revenant? Now that would be awesome and fitting. I like the way you think

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Wow, eight pages of thread for an incident that covered maybe ten minutes in our game.

Now, as the DM for the paladin in question, I didn't see the character's actions as a major infraction. In fact, I didn't even think it worthy of a discussion. But, that said, there are some points that I don't think have been brought up.

1. The paladin expressed her concern that the orc, if set free, would simply join up with another band of marauding humanoids and continue to wreak evil. Now, this is a very logical assumption, and as the DM, I can tell you that's exactly what would have happened. Since there was no time for a trial or anything formal, an execution was certainly not outside of her alignment or code.

2. The orc was offered an honorable death. He refused and fled. The paladin saw this as an act of cowardice further demonstrating that not only was the orc evil, but that he lacked honor. Now, I agree that this is act is more LN than LG, but still I don't think its amounts to a major infraction.

3. The orc was not tortured, he was not "back-stabbed", he was, in fact, dispatched with a single blow from the back of a charging mount. I would think that this kind of death would be almost instantaneous, and if we are talking real world here, probably more merciful than an execution, which would often take 2-3 strokes to sever the head.

Now, nothing I have said above invalidates any of your arguments regarding the paladin code, as this is a pretty subjective matter. I just wanted to give you all the skinny on what was actually said and done.

Thanks

BD

 

[Thurbane]

However, I'm hoping you can see the huge difference with the OP's problem paladin. She did not comport herself that way at all. If she had killed the orc immediately, that's fine. Waiting for it to be questioned and then murdering it after her group has already juiced it for all the information and it swore to repent and become good (and as far as her Sense Motive knew it was telling the truth) was not at all--it was manipulative in a "wring this lowly creature for all possible value first before I destroy it" sense as well as completely direspectful for the rest of the party and their modus operandi.

Damn, I missed those tidbits originally. Killing a captured orc is arguably justifiable - cold bloodedly questioning said orc under the false assumption that it would be allowed to live and repent afterwards is pretty freakin far from the Paladin ideal, especially if to the best of the Paladin's knowledge it was genuine in it's desire to repent. That is poor form on both the Good and Lawful axis of alignment, not to mention the Paladin's code.

This is reminscent of the old debate about whether a Paladin should waltz into a crowded town and simply start slaughtering every inhabitant who detects as Evil.

What next - it's OK to torture Evil captives for info? It's OK to slaughter babies if you've had an Augury that it will grow up to be Evil? It's OK to poison the well of an Orcish village?

[edit]I wrote this before the DM in question above posted - my answers are not in reply to his post - edited for clarity.[/edit]

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Damn, I missed those tidbits originally. Killing a captured orc is arguably justifiable - cold bloodedly questioning said orc under the false assumption that it would be allowed to live and repent afterwards is pretty freakin far from the Paladin ideal, especially if to the best of the Paladin's knowledge it was genuine in it's desire to repent.

The paladin never offered the orc its life in exchange for information. The capturing, questioning, and offer of leniency were all done by the barbarian and the mage. The paladin was against the plan from the get go.

Yes, the orc repented...under extreme duress. The plaladin expressed that she did not believe for a moment that the orc would walk the straight and narrow once he was out of sight.

BD

 

[Rystil Arden]

The paladin never offered the orc its life in exchange for information. The capturing, questioning, and offer of leniency were all done by the barbarian and the mage. The paladin was against the plan from the get go.

Yes, the orc repented...under extreme duress. The plaladin expressed that she did not believe for a moment that the orc would walk the straight and narrow once he was out of sight.

BD

The paladin allowed the others to question it under the offer of leniency though. This is basically allowing it by omission to eke out an advantage in a very letter-of-the-law Lawful Evil adherence. Similarly, a paladin who says 'torture is bad. I disagree with using torture' and then stands there and lets the other PCs torture someone to get that crucial information she needs is committing a faux pas as well.

As to claiming that she didn't believe the orc--if she had no way of proving this via beating it with Sense Motive or using a divination, then she must acknowledge that she could have easily been wrong--she had no in-game evidence, not even the Sense Motive 'inkling'.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

The paladin allowed the others to question it under the offer of leniency though. This is basically allowing it by omission to eke out an advantage in a very letter-of-the-law Lawful Evil adherence. Similarly, a paladin who says 'torture is bad. I disagree with using torture' and then stands there and lets the other PCs torture someone to get that crucial information she needs is committing a faux pas as well.

Agreed. That point had escaped me during the game, but it's a very valid argument.

As to claiming that she didn't believe the orc--if she had no way of proving this via beating it with Sense Motive or using a divination, then she must acknowledge that she could have easily been wrong--she had no in-game evidence, not even the Sense Motive 'inkling'.

I have to disagree with you here. The player made a judgment call, and I think the right one. Orcs have a well deserved reputation for evil, cruelty, and dishonesty, and to believe an orc claiming that he will suddenly make a monumental change in ethos and outlook, is foolish. Call it racial profiling, but in my opinion, the orc did very little to "prove" his sudden change of heart.

BD

 

[Thurbane]

The paladin never offered the orc its life in exchange for information. The capturing, questioning, and offer of leniency were all done by the barbarian and the mage. The paladin was against the plan from the get go.

Yes, the orc repented...under extreme duress. The plaladin expressed that she did not believe for a moment that the orc would walk the straight and narrow once he was out of sight.

BD

I see. Sorry if I had some facts mixed up.

The way you present the incident make the Paladin's actions seem much more reasonable.