Another solid article - Strongholds

[ferratus]

I'm afraid I'm disappointed with the article. There are a few rooms that do what I want my stronghold to do, and make it worth the cost of investing in them.

Prison - Useful for keeping low level enemies locked up.
Guards - Good for keeping it secure from wandering low-level monsters.

The iron doors, defensive walls moat and arrow slits are general enough and self-explanitory enough that they are useful.

Other than that the other rooms basically have a +1 to a skill per tier only in that room. Not really worth the cost of investing it compared to buying other magical items or equipment. Plus, they commit the cardinal sin of a D&D magic item... being boring. If I am building a library for example, why not give me a sage follower to go with it? With a magical laboratory, how about a place to research alchemist formulas by allowing you to freely purchase them there? There is so much more they could have done besides +1 skill check without breaking the game.

 

[Stoat]

Not a bad article at all. I agree that the skill bonuses for special rooms are somewhat limited (particularly given how the article emphasizes that PC's spend most of their time outside). I would have also liked to see bonuses beyond "+X to a skill check." I also dislike skill DC's that vary based on the level of the person attempting the skill, and I find it odd that the article goes back and forth between set DC's and DC's that vary by level.

On the other hand, the article contains possibly the best bit of DM'ing advice I've ever heard:

"Be a mensch."

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I mean, look at the ritual itself. Suppose you just cast Bigby's Construction Crew, all on its own, without any workers within a hundred miles. What happens? Well... according to the ritual text, you get a stronghold of 300 squares. So why would you ever use BCC as part of the regular construction process?

Yeah, misread that part... Thought you still had to pay for the materials... but i read it again and i see i drew false conclusions^^

But it doesn´t really state, that one application suffices to construct the stronghold... so a reasonable way to rule it would be saying, that a castle from scratch in no mans land needs at least 5 casts of this ritual...

 

[Zaran]

I guess I am in the minority of people who was disappointed in the article. I thought only 7 pages +1 page for a picture was not enough for such project as building a stronghold.

I know that when I make a stronghold for my character I like to detail it out as much as possible. I bet alot of players who want to "waste" gold into something that isn't helpful in combat are like me in that regard.

I did not like the "One size fits all" thing. I thought it would have been better (and I will do this) to say it costs 25000/300= 83 gold per space. I also did not like the "spend 640 gold and Epic rogues will have just as hard as a time as the level 1 newbie rogue in picking the locks" The cost should have scaled with the DC as others have pointed out. I am starting to believe "Unearthed Arcana" is Draconic for "We don't read this drek, just print it."

I also want more info on staff. I want to know what to do when players want to rent out space or stuff out of it like an inn or tavern. I always felt that 4e condenses things down too much and always keeps me wanting more. I feel like that if I feel like I need to go to a prior edition to get more info then that's a sell that WotC is missing out of.

I guess I can sum up this whole post to this: "A new edition should never have less info than an old one because there will be someone like me who will complain."

 

[mneme]

I liked it a lot. Although I was piqued that the prison's DC is fubarred -- such that any same-level foe (even one with a penalty to the skill in question) can escape with a take 20 (which should be the assumption for longterm bonds), at least for the 4th level room (dc 29 at level 14 is still too low, though).

 

[samursus]

I also thought the article was great! Quick and dirty rules for strongholds. And inspiration and ideas if you want more detail.

 

[pauljathome]

[URL="http://wizards.com It offers a good quick guide to including PC-owned strongholds in your campaign, and has several flavourful suggestions and rooms that grant bonuses, such as a library or a magical laboratory.

I don't like it very much.

As is pretty much always the case in D&D, the numbers are completely absurd.

For example, it costs 2400 gp to have an an armoury.

This armoury is 24 squares (600 sq feet) and holds 50 weapons and suits of armour.

Assuming that all 50 items are plate mail the cost is about justified. If you assume that most are weapons with only a little armour and that likely chain or leather (which would be historically accurate) then the cost is way high.

And 600 sq feet? You should look at REAL castles. This would probably be in a room less than 100sq feet in size.

But its D&D so lets ignore that for a moment.

You can't even buy a base until you can afford a L15 magic item. Even assuming the price is split between the group that is, for most groups, going to translate to mid-late Paragon at the earliest before there is enough spare cash to afford that.

And if you want to put in the bennies that cost goes way up very quickly.

 

[Gort]

I liked it a lot. Although I was piqued that the prison's DC is fubarred -- such that any same-level foe (even one with a penalty to the skill in question) can escape with a take 20 (which should be the assumption for longterm bonds), at least for the 4th level room (dc 29 at level 14 is still too low, though).

That's only if you take a "prison break" to be a standard action. Real prison breaks take weeks of planning. Would your characters be willing to spend 60 weeks mouldering in jail so they can take 20?

 

[Neonchameleon]

I liked it a lot. Although I was piqued that the prison's DC is fubarred -- such that any same-level foe (even one with a penalty to the skill in question) can escape with a take 20 (which should be the assumption for longterm bonds), at least for the 4th level room (dc 29 at level 14 is still too low, though).

That's not a bug. It's genre. Tricking the prison guards is known to be the easiest way of escaping from prisons. But their purpose is to wander round, making sure that anyone who tries to take 20 gets spotted - it takes time and is obvious. An unattended prison can therefore be escaped from by just about anyone who would be worth locking in it - but escaping from even stupid guards or escaping before they come round is much less reliable.

 

[Shroomy]

I liked it a lot. Although I was piqued that the prison's DC is fubarred -- such that any same-level foe (even one with a penalty to the skill in question) can escape with a take 20 (which should be the assumption for longterm bonds), at least for the 4th level room (dc 29 at level 14 is still too low, though).

Technically, there is no take 20 in 4e.

I really enjoyed this article and plan to implement it in a future campaign (or something like it, as I plan on giving my characters a very rundown castle at 1st level); there's just enough details available to be able for players to make it there own while its still abstract enough to not get bogged down in minutae.