Another TPK - Sigh.

[Maliki]

I feel the partys actions led to their demise, they knew the number and power of thier foes and did not take enough precautions after thier raid on the ogres lair. The DM played the monsters to thier potential and got a TPK, I would not consider him to be a killer DM. Hopefully from this the players learned from the mistakes they made, but also hopefully the DM also learned that while he was justified to use the ogres to the max of thier abilities there were several viable alternatives to the TPK that would not have seemed like he was going easy on them. Also when the players chose their course of action a few hints from him about how close to the ogres lair might have made the players realize how much danger their characters would have been in.

 

[Raven Crowking]

ForceUser said the group was 3rd-5th level. It's entirely possible they didn't even have one 5th level wizard, so no fireball, making the ogres an extremely tough proposition even if the party had the element of surprise.

Oops. My bad. You are correct.

Also, d4, you are correct in saying that sometimes the DM is going to lose players if his/her style doesn't mesh well with the style of those players. I'm not certain that this means that the DM needs to "step down" unless the game is being run in a public venue or at someone else's house. What it does mean is that the DM has to be willing to let players go without rancor.

I have to admit that, even under the circumstances of the final battle, I am surprised that the PCs didn't have the old standby, dispel magic, to remove the entangle. I mean, they did know that one of the ogres was a spellcaster, right? Also, the entangle would have affected any ogres who waded into melee, so had they taken out the spellcaster, they still would have had a reasonable chance to cut and run before they were all slaughtered.


RC

 

[Sunderstone]

I like how you played the Ogres to be honest. You made them much better than having them on a thunderous charge into the camp.

On the other hand, it was rather too heavy-handedly good. I like Mark's initial post as to possible alternative tactics. Then again, I dont know how much time you had to come up with the Ogres plan of attack gamewise.

All in all job well done and Ogres well played. Hopefully the players will utilize a posted guard or sentry on roating watches next time at their campsite.
Maybe even set up a couple of perimeter traps like my players sometimes (not always) do.

 

[BryonD]

P.S.: ByronD, you may be right about ForceUser's players not wanting to play in the sort of game that he wants to run. Personally, though, I don't think that DMs are obligated to alter their playing style. The DM sets the table, and if you want to eat, you eat what he's serving. If you don't want to eat, make room at the table for someone else.

The game has to be fun on both sides of the DM's screen. Everyone involved is obligated to make it fun, not just the person who spent the most time and money setting it up.

That said, the DM sure shouldn't hide or misrepresent the kind of game he wants to run. There is no indication that this is the case here. Quite the opposite, because ForceUser made certain that his players knew that they had the time to plan....and, of course, they've had previous experience with the results of not planning.

RC

You are seriously reading things into my comment that I did not say.

If the player's and DM sit down with notably different expecations, then the game is going to have an unnessesary obstacle to enjoyment.

Accusing me of somehow siding against the DM by pointing this out is a silly and misguided extrapolation.

But I do think that the limited evidence here does indicate that this may, in part, be the case here. Yes, they had seen the results before. And yet the same results keep happening. That should be a message.

Obviously the DM is under no obligation to change and is there to have fun as well as the players (DUH!!!!) But getting indignant about it is counter-preductive. I'd like to suggest that working with your players (who are hopefully also friends) results in a more satisfactory gaming experience than treating them as replacable diners.

(BTW Force User, no offense. I don't claim to have remotely any basis for saying this describes your game and I do not mean to do so. I was simply inquiring as to if this was possibly a part of the issue and now am responding to a general comment that really does not bear on you situation. I apologize for the side trek.)

 

[Bagpuss]

Another thing I might have done differently would be to have all the Ogres at home when they first raided the camp by day. After all Ogres are more likely to operate at night than by day, where darkvision gives them an additional advantage against those they are attacking. So the TPK would have happened sooner rather than later.

 

[ForceUser]

It's okay, BryonD. No offense taken.

Here's the post-game letter I sent to my players on this matter.

Gang,

Just wanted to say that I'm sorry the party got wiped out...again. I
will be evaluating my approach to game mastering to see if there's
anythng I could do differently that might be somehow contributing to
the wipeouts. If anyone has any input on this, by all means let me
know. As a storyteller I am truly bummed that we will not be
moving forward with that particular tale, because I put a lot of work
into it that won't be realized. As a gamemaster, though, I feel the
need to remain impartial, react to what the players do, and allow the
dice to stand as they lie. I think this is a necessary component of
interactive storytelling.

I know that for most of you it's the story, not the combat, that
drives the game. You don't have a clear understanding of the combat
rules or the tactical significance of doing this verses doing that.
That's okay. Just remember that your actions have consequences.
Approach dangerous situations carefully, and come up with definite
plans for tackling problems. Consider all the angles, including how
your opponents might react to your actions. Appoint a party leader who
will be decisive. And don't be afraid to retreat if the situation
warrants. To paraphrase something Britt said last night, you can be
heroic without being foolish.

See you in two weeks!

 

[Nifft]

Another, equally brutal alternative:

- Subdue PCs.
- Remove one arm from each of them.
- Send the PCs back into town as a warning: don't oppose us, or THIS is what happens to you.
- Eat one PC anyway for good measure. Whichever one killed the Ogre. Torture them until they give up their friend.

Voila! Not a TPK, but also not a shirking of consequences.

-- N

 

[Hjorimir]

Some lessons need to be learned the hard way. I think ForceUser ran things just fine (though I still think entangle is a broken spell for its level). My last TPK, a few months back, I threw my arms up in victory…and my player’s laughed and chided themselves for being stupid (but I have a long-lasting and good relationship with all of my players and I know I can get away with that…I used to run victory laps when I was younger).

I am willing to bet you’ll see some more caution and thought out of your group, ForceUser.

 

[Raven Crowking]

You are seriously reading things into my comment that I did not say.

Sorry, ByronD, if I came across as indignant. Nor was I attempting to accuse you of any malfeasance. You are fully correct when you say that "If the players and DM sit down with notably different expecations, then the game is going to have an unnessesary obstacle to enjoyment."

I only addressed the postscript to you so that it would be clear which post I was responding to. I did think it important to respond because there does exist a tendency among some players/posters to view the game as a "the DM should serve the players" type scenario, as opposed to the "we should all work together to make the game fun" type scenario. I didn't think that you necessarily took the first view, but your post could be read to support that view, so I responded. I tried to be even-handed in my response, and included the idea that the DM should be upfront about the type of game that he enjoys so that the players know whether or not this is the campaign for them.

You certainly have my apology if my writing wasn't clear enough to convey my intent. To be clear: I wasn't accusing you of siding against the DM. I was merely responding to your comments as written.


RC

 

[Hjorimir]

It's okay, BryonD. No offense taken.

Here's the post-game letter I sent to my players on this matter.

Bah! Your e-mail should have read: Foolish mortal worms! You dare to oppose the might of my ogre minions! With this second TPK I've gained another DM level and picked up the Craft Character Stew feat! Muwahahahahahaha...