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Answers on the GSL!

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
jmucchiello said:
Yes, but Alz was licensing his complaint with the GSL under the GSL so he has to keep his discussion in the fantasy world or violate the license. When we get more info on the modern GSL he can take it to the real world. :)

Au contraire, my complaint was unlicensed, which apparently means I'll be getting a letter from WotC's lawyers sometime soon. ;)
 

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BadMojo

First Post
Alzrius said:
Wow, posting on a forum warrants a letter from WotC's lawyers? EN World really has hit the big time! :lol:

The licensing and brand managers for WotC post here, and if we're to believe what Clark has said, they worked very hard to get the GSL out. I'm sure they're ecstatic to see that someone's already trying to "work around" the GSL despite the Q&A that already said Wizards doesn't want the same product published under the GSL and OGL.

I certainly hope you're not actually affiliated with EnWorld Publishing, since the attitude of trying to pull one over on Wizards, work around, dance around, whatever is incredibly unprofessional.

BTW, you're certainly not as daft as you make yourself out to be in the quote above. WotC was pretty restrained with putting the legal smack down on publishers at the beginning of 3.X, but with the apparent changes in their corporate culture I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them take action against "publishers" who try to dance around the GSL.
 

Although my ideal is to dual stat and let the fans use whatever they want, I am still very thankful that WotC decided to go with a per product line rather than per company restriction. That single thing moved from being utterly uninterested in publishing for 4e to dusting off my ideas to see which ones to get rolling on as a 4e product line!

Thank you!!!
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
BadMojo said:
The licensing and brand managers for WotC post here, and if we're to believe what Clark has said, they worked very hard to get the GSL out. I'm sure they're ecstatic to see that someone's already trying to "work around" the GSL despite the Q&A that already said Wizards doesn't want the same product published under the GSL and OGL.

Considering that they're said to be strong advocates of Open Gaming, who fought hard to make the GSL less restrictive, I'm sure they're ecstatic about that too. ;)

And just because WotC doesn't want other companies to do that, doesn't mean other companies should avoid a move that could be more profitable for themselves. WotC has made it clear they don't want companies to publish the same product under both systems, despite how that'd be more profitable for other companies; other companies, however, are certainly not to be faulted for doing what's best for themselves.

I certainly hope you're not actually affiliated with EnWorld Publishing, since the attitude of trying to pull one over on Wizards, work around, dance around, whatever is incredibly unprofessional.

I've never claimed to be affiliated with EN Publishing. I've freelanced for them in the past, and that's all.

BTW, you're certainly not as daft as you make yourself out to be in the quote above.

Actually, the quote above is me poking fun at the implied threat of legal action just because I posted about how to theoretically sidestep that particular GSL restriction. Because really, just musing about doing that on a public forums isn't even close to being actionable in a courtroom.

WotC was pretty restrained with putting the legal smack down on publishers at the beginning of 3.X, but with the apparent changes in their corporate culture I wouldn't be shocked at all to see them take action against "publishers" who try to dance around the GSL.

Well, I can't speak for what WotC would do in that regard, and neither would you, but I'd be surprised if they did try to do that, and even more surprised if their stance in this extremely hypothetical instance was anything other than trying to win by attrition, since they have deep pockets.

However, such a "publisher" who tried to "dance" around the "GSL" could possibly get a "ruling" wherein they "weren't" found to be "in" violation of the "restrictions," "thus" setting precedent "that" other "publishers" could follow.

":p"
 

Bacris

First Post
Piratecat said:
News from WotC on the GSL

Man, you go out of town for a nice long weekend, come back and find this.

Absolutely fantastic news.

Dreamscarred Press is on board for supporting 4E psionics (more details to come as we sort things out... and probably not really going to say more until the GSL is out in June).
 

BSF

Explorer
Green Knight said:
Easy to do so when you're just making spinoffs of WotC's IP. I'm talking about companies who've made their own rules sets, though. White Wolf, Palladium, Hero System, Steve Jackson, etc. Have any of them done as much as WotC?

In the back of my mind, there was something bothering me. I let it sit so I could ponder it a bit. Now, I think I can contribute to the conversation without being incendiary.

There are a number of games that dropped their systems in favor of adopting d20/OGL. This wasn't because they couldn't exist without the d20 ruleset. Nor would it be accurate to say that these companies felt their systems were mechanically inferior.

It would probably be fair to say these games wanted to tap into the ease of the learning curve by borrowing from the most popular RPG out there.

When you pick up a new game/setting, there are a few things that often need to be learned. There are setting specific aspects that need to be learned. Like if you pick up a sci-fi game, you need to learn the setting races, planets, technologies, etc. This is something you need to learn anyway to enjoy playing the game setting.

But you also need to learn the mechanics. Regardless of what the mechanics are, and how they model the game reality, you need to learn them.

By adopting the mechanics for the most popular system out there, you are able to cut down the learning curve for a new setting. Mechanics are boring, when you get right down to it. Though, there are times when mechanics model a particular aspect of a setting in a very creative manner. Nevertheless, the learning curve for mechanics means you spend less time playing the game. If you cut down the learning curve for mechanics, you speed up the time it takes for a given group to get to game play.

This is not to say that a game couldn't have existed without access to the d20 ruleset. Many, many games could have reinvented the wheel and created their own mechanics. However, with the benefit of hindsight, I think it is safe to say that in some way, shape or form, an open gaming license, using some sort of mechanics would have eventually existed. If for no other reason, than Ryan Dancey would have created the interest, somehow, after he left WotC.

However, by having multiple companies adopt the d20 ruleset, WotC gained quite a bit. To be sure, other companies gained as well. By making it easier to adopt their game system, since it built upon d20, they were able to appeal to a wider audience. But WotC kept more people discussing and developing around d20 for a much longer period of time as well. There was a feedback loop, as predicted, with the OGL. To be sure, there is a splintering effect as well. Games that became significant enough to build a rich customer base have been able to carve out their own niche. However, it is disingenuous to presume that these games can only exist because of the OGL. They may have been more successful because of the OGL structure. It might be that something about the OGL structure served as inspiration as a development jumping off point. But it could also be that some of these games adopted the OGL simply because it serves the gaming market well.

I think games such as Traveller and Runequest are strong examples of this. Both certainly existed long before the OGL. They had devoted fan communities that helped push fan based development even when companies were having difficulty maintaining success. Why would these games adopt the OGL?

I am sure there are a number of reasons, but one of those reasons is because the OGL facilitates continued development, even if a corporate entity has difficulties for whatever reason. Another reason, at least for the ones that have adopted a significant portion of the d20 mechanics, is to decrease the learning curve for some gamers.

Despite the number of gamers out there, this is still a relatively niche market. One way to help it grow is to adopt a solid set of mechanics and devote more time toward developing customers rather than new ways of modelling gaming realities.

WotC did quite a bit with the OGL to improve the gaming market. This is certainly true! And if you believe in the benefits of the Open Gaming movement, than WotC has certainly been one of the biggest contributors. But I beleive it was a visionary mindset, driven largely by Ryan Dancey, along with the recognition that information models were drastically changing, for example, the adoption of the internet, that made the creation of the OGL much less risky when D&D 3.0 was released.

WotC was certainly aware of the bad blood generated by the cease and desist orders TSR threw at fan sites. WotC was also aware that a significant portion of the market was hesitant to see what they would do with the D&D brand/property. After all, a lot of gamers perceived that Magic did a lot of harm to the RPG market. Anecdotally, I can share my own stories. The D20STL and the OGL were tools used to combat these fears and help gamers feel better about adopting the new system. So yes, the OGL was generous. But I think it served WotC's interests quite admirably. Now WotC wants to step back from that. Obviously, they have other interests that they feel will be better served by the GSL now.

But please, just because a certain game adopted the OGL and used d20 mechanics, don't assume that game couldn't exist without WotC's generosity.
 

JVisgaitis

Explorer
Pramas said:
I realize this is just an example...

Right. I understand this won't be possible, I'm just curious and True20 was the best example I could think of.

Pramas said:
As for the question, it really depends on Trademark issues. True20 was released under the OGL. This has always meant that people could design compatible product with it, but use of our Trademark requires permission. We have a new trademark license that allows it, so if that were still in force people could use it in conjunction with the OGL, just not on a line that was using the GSL.

Makes sense, thanks for responding.
 


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