Anti-Pretentious games

[Nisarg]

The recent thread about the "Modern New Age Myth RPG formula" has led me to define pretentiousness in a gaming context as being "an RPG that makes itself out to be more intelligent, artistic, or original then it really is".

I think we all know which games those are; but this definition has also led me to think in passing of the fact that there are many RPGs out there that would be defined as "anti-pretentious"; in other words, RPGs that are in reality more intelligent, artistic, or original than they or others make themselves out to be.

The first and most obvious of these would be the D20 system itself. It quickly managed to dominate the RPG market, doesn't sell itself as something brilliant, but in reality has managed to not only outdo every other gaming system on the market, but has also achieved what TSR was never able to do: take the basic D&D structure and transplant it into multiple genres.. I mean, how many sci-fi games did TSR try that were ultimately failures (Gamma World in its various incarnations was the closest they got to success)?

Another one in my opinion would be Amber: it has all the intelligence and innovation that other RPG systems make themselves out to have, with none of the fake artsyness or blowing of its own horn.

What other systems do you think fit into this definition of "anti-pretentiousness".

Nisarg

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

Kobolds Ate My Baby! (original version)

 

[Tinner]

Unpretentious games? I can think of a few.
Deadlands - brought an entire new sensibility to western games. Solid mechanics, and a well detailed world. Excellent stuff that never took itself too seriously.
TSR's old 1980's Marvel Super Heroes gae - It never claimed to be anything other than a rock'em-sock'em sperhero slugfest, but that dopey little system worked for the genre. They sold an awful lot of product too.
I\m sre there are others, but that's all I've got for now.

 

[Campbell]

Mutants and Masterminds
HERO
Buffy / Angel

 

[Nisarg]

Yes on the original early deadlands.. that whole "megasetting" of the deadlands sourcebook and various sequels ended up being a mess. But in the early days it was a thing of wonder.

Nisarg

 

[Mixmaster]

DC Superheroes - Also never claimed nothing but: Hit em hard! Again!! AGAIN!!!

 

[eyebeams]

The recent thread about the "Modern New Age Myth RPG formula" has led me to define pretentiousness in a gaming context as being "an RPG that makes itself out to be more intelligent, artistic, or original then it really is".

I think you should try a definition that fits the actual English word properly, rather than being a vague subset of it that you're using to continue your beef with anything that even vaguely looks like Vampire.

The most pretentious game I can think of is GURPS, followed closely by HERO. Claims of universality are always inherently pretentious, because they must be categorically incorrect. GURPS is worse because it has made great claims about realism, to boot. Runequest has always been a pretentious game for the same reason.

Pretentiousness can also apply to attempts to define a value system for players that extends outside of game play. Call of Cthulhu is the worst offender here, as at various times it has made claims about the relative value of different interpretations of the Mythos in fiction -- not just for the game, but in general. The Lord of the Rings RPG is pretentious because it defines Tolkien's literary magic in a highly debateable fashion, and this is in effect representing the work of someone who'd dead and can't argue the point.

Games that tell you about the intended mood, creative goals and play style are not pretentious in the least. If they claim to have succeeded (or automatically create success for folks who play it) in bringing about these goals for a group, then they are pretentious, but unfortunately, Nisarg, vampire doesn't do that. A pretense is a definitive claim, not a statement of intent.

The least pretentious game out there is Over the Edge. It doesn't make claims about realism about how thing outside of the game should be, or about what kind of goals it has achieved.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Star Thugs

 

[Nisarg]

I think you should try a definition that fits the actual English word properly, rather than being a vague subset of it that you're using to continue your beef with anything that even vaguely looks like Vampire.

For a fan of RPGs that constantly make up words to describe things that could easily be described in plain english, you are certainly being picky now.

The most pretentious game I can think of is GURPS, followed closely by HERO. Claims of universality are always inherently pretentious, because they must be categorically incorrect. GURPS is worse because it has made great claims about realism, to boot. Runequest has always been a pretentious game for the same reason.

I agree that GURPS has this kind of pretentiousness. Specifically because the system tends to break at very high power levels, thus making it at least a very poor universality.

Games that tell you about the intended mood, creative goals and play style are not pretentious in the least. If they claim to have succeeded (or automatically create success for folks who play it) in bringing about these goals for a group, then they are pretentious, but unfortunately, Nisarg, vampire doesn't do that. A pretense is a definitive claim, not a statement of intent.

Vampire and other white wolf products (right up to and including the new WoD main book) make claims that they are "storytelling games" that are an inherently superior experience to "roll-playing games" (and yes, the latest WoD corebook drags that old chestnut howling from the vaults), creating something inherently more "meaningful" than the aformentioned. It is not inherently superior, and it does not create an inherently more meaningful experience. Therefore its pretentious.

The least pretentious game out there is Over the Edge. It doesn't make claims about realism about how thing outside of the game should be, or about what kind of goals it has achieved.

I agree, and it fits the defintion used in this thread which you've tried to ignore: OtE makes no claims about intelligence or originality and yet its one of the most intelligent and original RPGs around.

Nisarg

 

[GMSkarka]

I put this in the other bang-the-drum-yet-again thread you started, so I'll repeat it here, for the edification and perusal of folks who are reading this one and not the other:

One of these days, I'm going to write an essay, studying the tendency among gamers to attack anything that they perceive as elevating itself above the norm. It's my belief that generally speaking, this is a residual effect of gamers as a social class having being bullied in their pasts--anything that they feel sets itself "above" them is somehow threatening, harkening back to the days when they were oppressed. It's kinda sad, really.