Pathfinder 1E Anticaster campaign world but with viable PC casters

[Celebrim]

So would it be fair to say that you don't believe divine magic would be able to compete?

I think this entirely depends on several things:

1) How universal is the hatred and fear of magic? Can society at all levels be trusted to turn against a spell-user, or our there subcultures within the society where you are either tentatively accepted or at least tolerated? That is, do criminals also cry, 'witch' and turn you over to the mob? Are witches or wizards tolerated in rural areas as a resource of magical aid long as nothing bad can be blamed on them? Are the educated or ruling classes more likely to be fanatical in this cause, or to pay it lip service while retaining magic users for thier own purposes? If there are subcultures that the spellusers can find refuge in, its far less of a problem than if literally everyone is unquestioning of the assumption that magic is universally abominable.
2) How powerful politically are divine spellcasters? Is testimony about the results of a spell admisable in court, and if it is, is that considered any more definitive of testimony than any other eye witness account? This is a very different circumstance than any priest which casts 'Detect Magic' being able to cry 'Warlock' and arranging an execution on the spot.
3) How powerful do you plan legitimate spellcasters to be mechanically? Say there is a rural village of 300 people, the highest level priest serving this community is probably - 1st, 3rd, 5th, or 9th level? By extension, what is probably the highest level priest in a nation or region. (In full disclosure, I would probably answer those questions as 3rd and 8th respectively)
4) It's less a questions of whether divine magic can compete than how much the society loses by not having both divine and arcane spellcasters to protect itself with. But in general, divine magic can't compete. There are somethings it can do well, but arcane magic can and does do just about anything. It is generally more poweful, that's why divine casters can wear armor and get more hit points and better BAB progresssion to compensate. In particular, the usual low level suspects - charm person, invisibility, web, fly, fireball, etc. - are a big deal if you can't respond in kind or at least set up arcane defences.

 

[Celebrim]

Charm Person alone radically alters the world.

Getting caught casting that spell is universally a death sentence - unless you are noble and have a right to beheading, usually death by torture - every where in my game world. That spell could be said to be the poster child for why they burn witches.

 

[Storminator]

Getting caught casting that spell is universally a death sentence - unless you are noble and have a right to beheading, usually death by torture - every where in my game world. That spell could be said to be the poster child for why they burn witches.

Of course. But if clever players avoid getting caught, a DM can expect lots of trouble.

PS

 

[Matthias]

Attitudes in my world are meant to vary widely. There will be kook fringe groups and even whole towns on both ends of the spectrum, but most fall somewhere legally between "benign wizards are ok if they are licensed to practice" and "possession of a spellbook or spelllike abilities will get you killed by a lynch mob". Socially, in lower class society, nobody cares if you're a caster as long as you don't cause trouble or play around with death magic, which will draw law enforcement's attention to the local neighborhood, and nobody wants that.

 

[Celebrim]

Attitudes in my world are meant to vary widely. There will be kook fringe groups and even whole towns on both ends of the spectrum, but most fall somewhere legally between "benign wizards are ok if they are licensed to practice" and "possession of a spellbook or spelllike abilities will get you killed by a lynch mob". Socially, in lower class society, nobody cares if you're a caster as long as you don't cause trouble or play around with death magic, which will draw law enforcement's attention to the local neighborhood, and nobody wants that.

Then may I suggest that you are playing at what I consider the 'default' level of acceptance of magic, and that no real compensation is required to make arcane casters playable. My game world has worked like that since the 1e era. PC spellcasters are still viable without any sort of boosts.

 

[Matthias]

I think I'll take your advice because it makes sense, and also because I would prefer not to load down the campaign with a lot of house rules if they aren't really helping the problem they are supposed to solve.

As an aside, what were your thoughts on the feats I proposed? They are all derivatives of D&D 3.X feats that would help spellcasters confuse others or conceal themselves, which might be expected in a campaign world where openly practicing magic (even benign magic) in an urban setting in front of the wrong kind of people will get one in trouble. The Rapid feats are pretty powerful, however, and may not be balanced, but IMO there ought to be other methods of concealment besides simply forgoing having to wave your arms and hands around in weird patterns or speak in some obscure language in order to get your spell off.

 

[MarkB]

How about allowing casters to use Bluff to disguise their spells' verbal components amidst normal speech, and Sleight of Hand to similarly disguise somatic components?

That way, you provide a method of disguising spellcasting without having to invoke the full benefits and costs of Silent Spell and Still Spell.

If you need a balancing factor (aside from the skill investments and the possibility of failing a check) then you could require spells cast this way to take up a full round action.

 

[Celebrim]

As an aside, what were your thoughts on the feats I proposed?

Metamagic feats in general are underpowered, because the advantage that they provide you generally isn't worth a) spending a feat and b) the cost of filling up a higher level spell slot. They tend to be highly situational responses to very particular problems. I don't really have a problem with any of the feats you listed, even the rapid ones, although I also wouldn't really expect them to be taken even in the setting you describe. The house rules that really worried me was "Finally, all casters that gain bonus spells per day can immediately benefit from any bonus spell slots granted by a high relevant ability score." along side the increased number of bonus feats for all casters. Adding highly situational options to your list of chargen/advancement options isn't likely to be unbalancing, I just didn't think casters needed the huge boost. Allowing trading a Familiar for a different bonus feat is however something I already allow, mostly because I don't want to saddle casters with a familiar that don't want a companion (on the other hand, I've made familiars significantly more powerful and useful).

but IMO there ought to be other methods of concealment besides simply forgoing having to wave your arms and hands around in weird patterns or speak in some obscure language in order to get your spell off.

I agree, and I still think that if you need that, the best way is to go with some mechanic to make casting a spell discretely an opposable skill challenge. In fact, I'll go a bit further than the above. Instead making a feat that allows you to cast discretely, come up with a mechanic that describes how a caster casts a spell discretely (the idea might be something like, I hide my hands behind my back/under the table/etc., think how deaf people 'whisper'), describe the cost of casting discretely (chance of spell failure) and how it might be contested by an NPC through a number of opposed skill check depends on the means by which the spell is obscured and the components of the spell. Then your 'Discrete Spell' feat interacts with that universal mechanic in some way, for example, removing the chance of spell failure. This might actually be taken, because it isn't a Metamagic Feat and doesn't bring along that feats baggage, and Feat as enhancement of a mechanic rather than a binary gate to a mechanic is in my opinion superior design. And as I said, Bards need a boost. If you do that sort of thing, make them get the feat by default.

 

[Matthias]

I really like the suggestion of Bluff and Sleight of Hand to conceal the use of Verbal and Somatic (and Material) components.

Maybe a caster could conceal magical writing (as on a scroll) to make it appear as ordinary wriing using Linguistics, and this would be opposed by a Spellcraft check made by the reader. The base level of difficulty (no penalty to your skill check) lets your scroll appear to be a coded message (i.e. scrambled nonsense words, numbers, etc.), while at a higher level of difficulty (-1 to your roll per spell level?) you can make the spell look like an uncoded message such as a recipe for making dwarven root beer or something. Success only confirms that the writing is in fact magical and conceals a spell, and does not give any information on what the spell does, its spell level, casting class, etc.

Casting a spell from a concealed-writing scroll would take longer than normal (how long?), and require Spellcraft check opposed by author's Linguistics if it's not a scroll you wrote and you don't know the cipher, though if you do know the cipher (e.g. you've 'cracked' a certain caster's code before) then you should get a +2 bonus or so to your check.

 

[MarkB]

Good ideas. If you go that way, then a great disguise for a practicing spellcaster would be as a lay priest for some obscure religion (one that most people have heard of, but few have ever met an actual practitioner).

That way, your spellbook is your prayer book, written in the original ancient <insert latin equivalent>. Your material components are salves, unguents and incense ingredients. And your verbal and somatic components are murmured prayers and gestures of supplication.

And hey, if something concrete happens as a result that can't be explained away as a coincidence, then praise be - it's a miracle! The deity actually answered your prayer.

Of course, in a world with real, proactive deities, you'd need to be careful of pulling that trick too often. The deity might notice, and take offense.