Antimagic shell (I know, I know ...)
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Bonedagger
First Post
Good counter:
Invisible rouges with missile attack (All that sneaking around and sneak attack). I like to keep it simple
You should always bring some in case you meet a bad guy who throws up an Antimagicfield
Invisible rouges with missile attack (All that sneaking around and sneak attack). I like to keep it simple
You should always bring some in case you meet a bad guy who throws up an Antimagicfield
Cloudgatherer
First Post
I'd play it so that spells cast in an anti-magic field are simply not cast. That is, a caster goes through the motions, but no energy is expended, the spell does not get used, the caster just can't summon the energy.
Magus_Jerel
First Post
mmmm - Sigil... got a few problems. I had to struggle with this thing myself - and actually had to reverse part of My opinion on the spell a few games ago.
No - the spell *works* - but its effect is supressed - in a similar fashion to how a Vampire's command/domination ability used on an individual inside a magic circle. That btw - is the precedent for considering how "supression" works. This DOES effectively "counter" instantaneous effects - but not something like charm person.
mmmm - I would drop the "as though it hit a wall of force part". See the illustration below.
No - only the portion of the effect inside an AMF would be stopped. See the illustration at the end of this message.
yep
Actually - this is implicit in statement 4; and the fact that the spell is merely "supressed" and not dispelled upon impacting the field. The fireball bead or what not is "supressed" as it passes THROUGH the field. This can be somewhat important if you are using meteor swarm.
Now - for an illustration.
Lisa; the good wizard - has an AMF field with a 10'radius in place. Her familiar, Pax, is 15 feet away from her. Zorus - the Evil Archmage - not realizing the AMF is in effect, casts Fireball directly at Lisa.
Q: What happens?
Pax is struck by the fireball - and Lisa is unaffected. Why? Only the area of the spell that overlaps the AMF has it's effect supressed. In this case - that is the center of the effect. Any area outside the AMF is still affected normally.
Q2: Can Lisa cast a spell at Zorus with her AMF still up?
A: yes
Counterargument:
It is possible to argue that all spells, spell like abilities, and supernatual abilities have as a function their "activation" - and in the case of "spells".
However, The PHB glossary definition of spell is "a one time magical effect" that is separate and independent of its means of activation, As "one time magical effects" need not of necessity be "cast".
A "spell" which falls into either the general category "Arcane" or "Divine" does need to be "cast", but this is a method of activation and only an invocation of "Rule 0" can render the act of casting as part of the function of an arcane or divine spell.
Q3: Can Lisa use a scroll or wand to cast a spell at Zorus with AMF still up.
A: No, because activation is a "function" of a magic item, and the spell prevents their "functioning".
First of all, the second paragraph is not what may prevent the "functioning" of spells. It is the first paragraph, and that requires forcing "casting" to be a "function" of an arcane or divine spell.
As far as play balance and creating a prison of some kind for a spellcaster.
Blinding (or blindfolding) a spellcaster renders it such that they have no "line of effect" beyond their person - or theoretically a touch spell. Manacles can prevent them from touching something you don't want them to touch (and the blindfold gives them a miss chance as well.)
A dimensional anchor effect prevents teleportation or escape by extra-planar means. IMC - this just means that the walls and door have to be lead lined - or made of lead, and is non-magically possible.
The "hard part" is the fact that spellcaster can still place a spell on themselves. Polymorph self and similar magic can be incredibly helpful in facilitating an escape - but require an EXTREMELY inventive individual.
Furthermore, the use of poison or magic that drops the individual's mental attribute score to 9 or below can prevent spellcasting, and effectively reder them a "normal" prisoner.
Now - if you have magic and are willing to use it - the following work quite nciely
1. Feeblemind (but this does make them vegtables... not necessarily a desireable or "good" thing)
3. Mark of Justice - set to trigger upon the attempted use of magic - with a curse effect that lowers the character's spellcasting score. This works - provided the spellcasting stat is below 15 and you keep magic items away from the character. If the character has a stat that is a wee bit too high - it could be combined with the drugging effects mentioned previously.
3. A Geas - worded as such - "Thou shalt not attempt to use magic in any shape, way, or form".
An attempt to use a spell then causes 3d6 damage - forcing a concentration check. Furthermore this "penalty" could occur on each breach of the geas; depending on how the GM rules.
4. Lesser geas, Geas, or a Mark of Justice compelling an individual to remain within the prison; also work quite well - causing debilitation if the individual attempts to escape.
If the individual were capable of escaping your prison despite all of these precautions - the extreme measure of a binding spell (if available) would work on a far more permanent basis. Similarly extreme is outright killing the individual - and then using trap the soul.
When it comes to restraining a powerful magic user... where there is a will to do so - there IS a way to do it. You just have to think hard enough to do so.
No - the spell *works* - but its effect is supressed - in a similar fashion to how a Vampire's command/domination ability used on an individual inside a magic circle. That btw - is the precedent for considering how "supression" works. This DOES effectively "counter" instantaneous effects - but not something like charm person.
mmmm - I would drop the "as though it hit a wall of force part". See the illustration below.
No - only the portion of the effect inside an AMF would be stopped. See the illustration at the end of this message.
yep
Actually - this is implicit in statement 4; and the fact that the spell is merely "supressed" and not dispelled upon impacting the field. The fireball bead or what not is "supressed" as it passes THROUGH the field. This can be somewhat important if you are using meteor swarm.
Now - for an illustration.
Lisa; the good wizard - has an AMF field with a 10'radius in place. Her familiar, Pax, is 15 feet away from her. Zorus - the Evil Archmage - not realizing the AMF is in effect, casts Fireball directly at Lisa.
Q: What happens?
Pax is struck by the fireball - and Lisa is unaffected. Why? Only the area of the spell that overlaps the AMF has it's effect supressed. In this case - that is the center of the effect. Any area outside the AMF is still affected normally.
Q2: Can Lisa cast a spell at Zorus with her AMF still up?
A: yes
Counterargument:
It is possible to argue that all spells, spell like abilities, and supernatual abilities have as a function their "activation" - and in the case of "spells".
However, The PHB glossary definition of spell is "a one time magical effect" that is separate and independent of its means of activation, As "one time magical effects" need not of necessity be "cast".
A "spell" which falls into either the general category "Arcane" or "Divine" does need to be "cast", but this is a method of activation and only an invocation of "Rule 0" can render the act of casting as part of the function of an arcane or divine spell.
Q3: Can Lisa use a scroll or wand to cast a spell at Zorus with AMF still up.
A: No, because activation is a "function" of a magic item, and the spell prevents their "functioning".
First of all, the second paragraph is not what may prevent the "functioning" of spells. It is the first paragraph, and that requires forcing "casting" to be a "function" of an arcane or divine spell.
As far as play balance and creating a prison of some kind for a spellcaster.
Blinding (or blindfolding) a spellcaster renders it such that they have no "line of effect" beyond their person - or theoretically a touch spell. Manacles can prevent them from touching something you don't want them to touch (and the blindfold gives them a miss chance as well.)
A dimensional anchor effect prevents teleportation or escape by extra-planar means. IMC - this just means that the walls and door have to be lead lined - or made of lead, and is non-magically possible.
The "hard part" is the fact that spellcaster can still place a spell on themselves. Polymorph self and similar magic can be incredibly helpful in facilitating an escape - but require an EXTREMELY inventive individual.
Furthermore, the use of poison or magic that drops the individual's mental attribute score to 9 or below can prevent spellcasting, and effectively reder them a "normal" prisoner.
Now - if you have magic and are willing to use it - the following work quite nciely
1. Feeblemind (but this does make them vegtables... not necessarily a desireable or "good" thing)
3. Mark of Justice - set to trigger upon the attempted use of magic - with a curse effect that lowers the character's spellcasting score. This works - provided the spellcasting stat is below 15 and you keep magic items away from the character. If the character has a stat that is a wee bit too high - it could be combined with the drugging effects mentioned previously.
3. A Geas - worded as such - "Thou shalt not attempt to use magic in any shape, way, or form".
An attempt to use a spell then causes 3d6 damage - forcing a concentration check. Furthermore this "penalty" could occur on each breach of the geas; depending on how the GM rules.
4. Lesser geas, Geas, or a Mark of Justice compelling an individual to remain within the prison; also work quite well - causing debilitation if the individual attempts to escape.
If the individual were capable of escaping your prison despite all of these precautions - the extreme measure of a binding spell (if available) would work on a far more permanent basis. Similarly extreme is outright killing the individual - and then using trap the soul.
When it comes to restraining a powerful magic user... where there is a will to do so - there IS a way to do it. You just have to think hard enough to do so.
Antimagic field is the ultimate spell protection, but anything with any melee ability can just walk in and dice up your wizard, so its hardly the ultimate defense, not to mention once its in the field with you , you can't do anything to it.
Image Merlin casts his Antimagic field at one end of the battlefield.
Conan is at the other end, and drinks a potion of fly (or uses any other method of moving quickly thats available at level 13 or so), and moves closer (if not into the antimagic field).
Next round Merlin casts a single spell at someone (possibly Conan), assuming his target isn't taken out...
Conan moves into melee with Merlin. Merlin has an AC of 12 on a good day (assuming Dex 14 or so). Conan has a BAB +13, +6 Str (Raging), +1 MW weapon, so moves in and attacks Merlin repeatedly with a +8 Power Attack, or worse yet grapples Merlin and crushes him to death with his superior Str and 3 attacks a round.
Merlin's defense?
Drop his antimagic field and try to escape alive.
Its a good defense, but its VERY vulnerable to any character with more melee ability than the Wizard (which is just about everybody in a magicless environment).
Image Merlin casts his Antimagic field at one end of the battlefield.
Conan is at the other end, and drinks a potion of fly (or uses any other method of moving quickly thats available at level 13 or so), and moves closer (if not into the antimagic field).
Next round Merlin casts a single spell at someone (possibly Conan), assuming his target isn't taken out...
Conan moves into melee with Merlin. Merlin has an AC of 12 on a good day (assuming Dex 14 or so). Conan has a BAB +13, +6 Str (Raging), +1 MW weapon, so moves in and attacks Merlin repeatedly with a +8 Power Attack, or worse yet grapples Merlin and crushes him to death with his superior Str and 3 attacks a round.
Merlin's defense?
Drop his antimagic field and try to escape alive.
Its a good defense, but its VERY vulnerable to any character with more melee ability than the Wizard (which is just about everybody in a magicless environment).
Thanee
First Post
Well, he could summon something large to stop the barbarian or cast hold monster or a similar spell on him.
Hey, at least you CAN drop the antimagic field, if it didn't have the (D) with that really long duration, that would be some fun!
But as I said, combination of wizard and fighter is not the best to encounter, when you use the antimagic field.
Bye
Thanee
Hey, at least you CAN drop the antimagic field, if it didn't have the (D) with that really long duration, that would be some fun!
But as I said, combination of wizard and fighter is not the best to encounter, when you use the antimagic field.
Bye
Thanee
Magus_Jerel
First Post
If said Barbarian is wearing boots of striding and springing and has drunk a fly potion - His "charge" range is 720 feet.
Base fly move - 90ft
Boots see and double this to 180 ft
Use the full round charge action:
720 feet to smacking said magic user - 1 attack
The wizzie using AMF doesn't even get a chance to throw that medium or close range spell before they find themselves in hand to hand combat.
Since the barbarian can get in from that far out - I'll be content to "spot" him the 5 feet of distance that he doesn't have His boots and fly spell ya rules lawyers.
Damage:
Conan's to hit is +21 (I'll throw in weapon focus in addition to a MW weapon), and the wizard's AC is 13, IF he has a dex of 16 as well as a high intelligence score (very possible with elves and some good character creation rolls).
Even with a power attack of +10 Conan has a 95% chance of hitting the wizzie
Said 13th level wizard could consider himself lucky to have about 57 hp (+2 con bonus; living greyhawk rules)
Conan uses a greatsword...
2d6 +9 (1.5x str mod) +10 (power attack)
dealing 21-31 points of damage a swing
Now; lets say Conan gets just a wee bit lucky; and manages to score a crit.
The damage range is 42 to 62 points.
The hardcore combat math specifies that in this situation; that Conan will outright kill the wizard anywhere from 1 to 3 rounds should the wizard maintain his AMF.
Presuming the wizard only takes about 26 points of damage - and doesn't suffer a critial and die; He will have to do one of several things
1. get farther than 720 feet away from Conan
2. Kill Conan
3. Do something else that will cause Conan to miss him
4. Restrain Conan
1 and 3 are out as the wizard is "unwilling" to drop his AMF - option 4 is the smart choice... but
our wizard makes a mistake and uses option 2
Now -
The Barbarian is raging and has about an 18 con while doing so. that means that Conan has 143 HP (+4 net con bonus, living greyhawk rules)
In order to get Conan with a spell, the wizard must take a partial action to distance himself from Conan - so the AMF no longer protects him. The wizard then throws his best spell - a delayed blast fireball - at Conan; dealing not less than 13 and not more than 78 points of damage. Conan doesn't make the reflex save - but The "average" damage is around 40 points - not all that much damage for Conan.
When Conan repeats his attack; He will knock the wizard down to an "average" total of 5 hit points.
Please note:
If you make your players roll HP under normal rules or If Conan is even the slightest bit lucky - the wizard is dying already at -2 hit points. Even if Conan is unlucky; the wizard is in a very bad position, and will most certainly be dead if Conan gets to attack him in round three.
If the wizard has survived, The wizard needs to retreat, kill or restrain Conan. Tactically speaking - retreat only possible by either the combination of haste/fly/s&s boots or teleportation spells. The wizard - because He is using AMF - can only hope to drop his AMF, step back, and teleport away.
To do other than so and fail to kill or otherwise prevent Conan from attacking the wizard on round 2; is for the wizard to invite a 95% chance of death.
The "invincible" stratagem of casting AMF and casting inside that AMF is - bluntly - non-existent.
Base fly move - 90ft
Boots see and double this to 180 ft
Use the full round charge action:
720 feet to smacking said magic user - 1 attack
The wizzie using AMF doesn't even get a chance to throw that medium or close range spell before they find themselves in hand to hand combat.
Since the barbarian can get in from that far out - I'll be content to "spot" him the 5 feet of distance that he doesn't have His boots and fly spell ya rules lawyers.
Damage:
Conan's to hit is +21 (I'll throw in weapon focus in addition to a MW weapon), and the wizard's AC is 13, IF he has a dex of 16 as well as a high intelligence score (very possible with elves and some good character creation rolls).
Even with a power attack of +10 Conan has a 95% chance of hitting the wizzie
Said 13th level wizard could consider himself lucky to have about 57 hp (+2 con bonus; living greyhawk rules)
Conan uses a greatsword...
2d6 +9 (1.5x str mod) +10 (power attack)
dealing 21-31 points of damage a swing
Now; lets say Conan gets just a wee bit lucky; and manages to score a crit.
The damage range is 42 to 62 points.
The hardcore combat math specifies that in this situation; that Conan will outright kill the wizard anywhere from 1 to 3 rounds should the wizard maintain his AMF.
Presuming the wizard only takes about 26 points of damage - and doesn't suffer a critial and die; He will have to do one of several things
1. get farther than 720 feet away from Conan
2. Kill Conan
3. Do something else that will cause Conan to miss him
4. Restrain Conan
1 and 3 are out as the wizard is "unwilling" to drop his AMF - option 4 is the smart choice... but
our wizard makes a mistake and uses option 2
Now -
The Barbarian is raging and has about an 18 con while doing so. that means that Conan has 143 HP (+4 net con bonus, living greyhawk rules)
In order to get Conan with a spell, the wizard must take a partial action to distance himself from Conan - so the AMF no longer protects him. The wizard then throws his best spell - a delayed blast fireball - at Conan; dealing not less than 13 and not more than 78 points of damage. Conan doesn't make the reflex save - but The "average" damage is around 40 points - not all that much damage for Conan.
When Conan repeats his attack; He will knock the wizard down to an "average" total of 5 hit points.
Please note:
If you make your players roll HP under normal rules or If Conan is even the slightest bit lucky - the wizard is dying already at -2 hit points. Even if Conan is unlucky; the wizard is in a very bad position, and will most certainly be dead if Conan gets to attack him in round three.
If the wizard has survived, The wizard needs to retreat, kill or restrain Conan. Tactically speaking - retreat only possible by either the combination of haste/fly/s&s boots or teleportation spells. The wizard - because He is using AMF - can only hope to drop his AMF, step back, and teleport away.
To do other than so and fail to kill or otherwise prevent Conan from attacking the wizard on round 2; is for the wizard to invite a 95% chance of death.
The "invincible" stratagem of casting AMF and casting inside that AMF is - bluntly - non-existent.
AGGEMAM
First Post
Magus_Jerel said:If said Barbarian is wearing boots of striding and springing and has drunk a fly potion - His "charge" range is 720 feet.
Base fly move - 90ft
Boots see and double this to 180 ft
Use the full round charge action:
720 feet to smacking said magic user - 1 attack
The wizzie using AMF doesn't even get a chance to throw that medium or close range spell before they find themselves in hand to hand combat.
Two comments.
The Monk move above speed 50' is a supernatural ability which is not double by the Boots.
And when you get in the AMF the boots stop working abruptly which may or may not influence whether you can reach your opponent or not.
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