D&D 4E Any body have a 4e style disarm move?

[Garthanos]

Forked from: Making the Avenger ranged - what would that do?

While I kind of liked Plane's idea in terms of ease of balance (basically giving an implement die and improved crit trailer for some implements and improved attack for the wand),

It breaks a flavor factor for me... for a warrior if you take away his sword he is a d4... if you take away the wand,staff or rod,dagger,power stone.... the wizard still does d8 d10 d6

Perhaps adding in a readily available and very cinematic disarmed condition could bring the idea back in to the play balance.

In my game world they have to go to special measures to disarm a mage.. perhaps that is also why mages always get a bonus on intimidate like they are armed to the teeth.

The above idea made me think having a disarm might actually bring a touch of balance.

Realistically disarms are well hard to do... You have to be substantially better than your adversary to really have any reasonable chance of pulling it off. However given this game is more cinematic and heroic and far more fantastic than realistic... why is there no disarm powers? In the movies the climatic battles frequently involve the swordsmen temporarily disarming one another... Conceptually disarms would be quite reasonable against mooks or hoards of lower level enemies. Wizard spells which heated the enemies weapon handles causing them to spend time recovering the weapon...etc.

Is there a power we could reskin to be a delay of game style disarm? Or which has about the same power as suppressing [w] attacks to be d4 till your opponent makes a save to recover the weapon? Any ideas out there?

 

[Alex319]

Well, there are two big things about disarm you need to consider:

1. If a monster is disarmed, what does its attack look like? Remember that most monster stat blocks assume you have the weapon.

2. This could be VERY powerful against a player at higher levels, because players will have a very hard time hitting if they lose their +6 weapon.

I remember a few threads from a while back about disarm, I'll post links to them if I can dig them up.

 

[77IM]

I would use my abstract stunt system: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...242560-abstract-stunt-system.html#post4586877

To address Alex319's questions,

1. One answer is to use d4 (or d6 for a creature with natural weapons, like a lizardfolk) and then scale up the damage die based on size (using the weapon size rules in the PHB). Another answer is to use DMG p.42 to guestimate damage. In both cases I would probably allow the creature's melee basic attacks to keep working but might take away some of his Weapon special moves.

2. I don't generally use stunts like this against players -- it's not the point of my system, and I don't usually let monsters use tactics that are "effective but unfun." Any high-level player worth his salt will have a backup weapon anyway.

-- 77IM

 

[Garthanos]

Well, there are two big things about disarm you need to consider:

1. If a monster is disarmed, what does its attack look like? Remember that most monster stat blocks assume you have the weapon.

If I want my players describing there attacks adaptively I better be willing to do something like it for the monsters?

2. This could be VERY powerful against a player at higher levels, because players will have a very hard time hitting if they lose their +6 weapon.

I think heros being massively dependent on there magical weaponry may be slightly counter heroic... being fond of Beowulf (I might be the exception but I have a fondness for legends and myth which emphasize the man not his hardware) and that is a problem that might be adjusted for its own sake.

I think I am looking for a campaign were the equipment is a less central to the character than Excalibur is to Arthur and Stormbringer was to Elric, so adjusting things away from that direction also be needed.

My idea for having most magic weapons be damage dealing boosts instead of to hit sources... has some interesting implications. Here are some examples.

One magical sword was very sharp obsidian strengthened by runes but it did not guide your hand in any way just damage bonuses and perhaps a bit of benefit from being well balanced. It was also a flaming blade... high end criticals.

And those that do help your attack be more precise well some of those
were like this...
A magical dagger took over its wielder... in order to deliver incredibly precise vulnerable location style attacks against the creature it was created to battle against... the pc didnt get much experience points out of the deal if he invoked its daily power (but it definitely had a get you out of the frying pan usefullness). I described the fuzzy memory loss and vagueness about what was done during the battle.. the player had the character promptly stow the thing because it was anathema to the character.

And some were like this.
There was a sword which allowed one to fight with the skill of a specific level... but if you were above that level it was only a +1 or +2 or so because it was exceptionally well balanced.

I am afraid I find so many +x items ahem 'boring.' it is powers which make them interesting ... and maybe the item dailies feel a little too restricted.

I remember a few threads from a while back about disarm, I'll post links to them if I can dig them up.

love to see them.

 

[Garthanos]

I would use my abstract stunt system: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...242560-abstract-stunt-system.html#post4586877

I will check it out

To address Alex319's questions,

1. One answer is to use d4 (or d6 for a creature with natural weapons, like a lizardfolk) and then scale up the damage die based on size (using the weapon size rules in the PHB). Another answer is to use DMG p.42 to guestimate damage. In both cases I would probably allow the creature's melee basic attacks to keep working but might take away some of his Weapon special moves.

Yes that is per my thoughts...

2. I don't generally use stunts like this against players -- it's not the point of my system, and I don't usually let monsters use tactics that are "effective but unfun." Any high-level player worth his salt will have a backup weapon anyway.
-- 77IM

I can see that ... as I said if one wanted to restrict disarming to.. your opponent is either low... hitpoints or outclassed completely that could certainly be an option. Or dramatic... "Only the arrogant Baron would dare try it against the hero."

I have to say I don't always game the same kinds of encounters D&D seems geared for either... ie my play has often been with 2 or 3 players and one GM. Set up a duel between that Baron and one of the PC's with the other as a second... and the last only getting involved when it seems obvious the barons henchmen dont want it to be a fair fight.

Sometimes it might be fun if enemy reduced to zero hitpoints.
choose one
1) disarm enemy (as a part of an intimidation roll against them and their allies perhaps get them to flee)
2) character is knocked unconcious.
3) character is dead.

 

[Alex319]

Google search for "disarm" on ENWorld:

site:www.enworld.org disarm - Google Search

Here's a few interesting threads from that list:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...1007-martial-exploits-trip-disarm-sunder.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/241942-does-d-d-4th-edition-have-disarm.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/234467-disarm-rules.html

 

[Garthanos]

Google search for "disarm" on ENWorld:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/241942-does-d-d-4th-edition-have-disarm.html

According to that thread there are high level fighter and rogue powers that do it, I will have to investigate further.

The stunts idea / extension of page 42 with a minus 5 on an attack roll and (not having the attack do damage unlike the powers) also sounds like a possibility...

I kind of like the idea that if you launch an attack with a weapon for which disarming can be done reasonably and that attack reduces the target to below zero hit points you can choose just like choosing unconsciousness versus death.. that they be instead of either the target is at exactly zero hit points and have there weapons at their feet. Existing spells and powers could then disarm a bunch of minions for example.

I sometimes have heros fighting people they really dont want to hurt and disarmed sounds even more impressive than knocked out.

 

[malcolm_n]

You could give a flat -3 to attack. Creatures that have weapons with a smaller proficiency bonus than +3 take the same penalty, since you probably hurt their hand or other limb in some way while disarming them.

Or, how about running it like a "standard action" immobilize, in that the enemy/monster must spend its standard action preparing to attack again or picking up its weapon?

Immobilize - You cannot take move actions
Disarm - You cannot take standard actions
Dazed - You can only take a minor, move, or standard action
stunned - You can take no actions.

It scales to the rest. The flavor of it is that on a monster with "natural weapons" you are swiping at that weapon and making it cringe back or away from you for a time. Like cutting at it's nose if it has a bite attack, you make it so that it's painful for the creature to bite at you until its nose doesn't hurt any more.

 

[Mentat55]

Exorcism of Steel is a level 17 fighter encounter power that disarms an opponent.

 

[Garthanos]

Idea

handles of fire
i am now thinking of a wizard/warlock power for mass disarming which might not even disarm anyone ;-) its the targets choice either take d8 damage or drop their weapon at their own feet, minions choose to become bloodied or drop their weapon. This is one i would like to stay hot for a few rounds...but save ends doesn't quite make sense does it?